2.2 Trade Concerns

[Ancillary]

So let me see if I have this right. Collected trade value in 2.2 undergoes two trips: First, it travels from its origin system to a system with a starbase in collection range. Next, it travels from that system to the capital system. The first trip is completely safe from pirates, but the second is not.

What's more, all of this automatic. Every starbase that can collect trade value will do so and set up a trade route. (Starbases with no trade value also seem to do this, but that looks like a bug in the preview build.)

I haven't been able to confirm this, but I think the nearest starbase will always grab the trade value if multiple collection ranges overlap.

This could be a problem. Let's say that my capital system has a starbase with three trade hubs. Three jumps away is a frontier system with trade value. I build a starbase in that system because I need to secure the border. Suddenly, the trade value in that system, which was being collected directly by the capital system and not subject to piracy, is now collected by the border starbase and sent to the capital via a trade route which I will be forced to patrol and fortify against pirate attacks.

If this is the case, it incentivizes me to avoid placing non-trade-focused starbases in systems with trade value in order to avoid unpredictability in my trade network, even if I have some other compelling reason to place a starbase there.

Are my concerns off base? Even if players are unable to orchestrate their trade network directly, will there be some way to exclude military starbases so they don't create unnecessary routes?

 

[Seisho]

I think if you increase the trade grab it was mostly the adjecent systems (correct me if I am wrong)

Also you can always send patrol crafts - and longer/more valuble routes are more in danger of being pirated then short/cheap ones

 

[Pointyearedgit]

So let me see if I have this right. Collected trade value in 2.2 undergoes two trips: First, it travels from its origin system to a system with a starbase in collection range. Next, it travels from that system to the capital system. The first trip is completely safe from pirates, but the second is not.

What's more, all of this automatic. Every starbase that can collect trade value will do so and set up a trade route. (Starbases with no trade value also seem to do this, but that looks like a bug in the preview build.)

I haven't been able to confirm this, but I think the nearest starbase will always grab the trade value if multiple collection ranges overlap.

This could be a problem. Let's say that my capital system has a starbase with three trade hubs. Three jumps away is a frontier system with trade value. I build a starbase in that system because I need to secure the border. Suddenly, the trade value in that system, which was being collected directly by the capital system and not subject to piracy, is now collected by the border starbase and sent to the capital via a trade route which I will be forced to patrol and fortify against pirate attacks.

If this is the case, it incentivizes me to avoid placing non-trade-focused starbases in systems with trade value in order to avoid unpredictability in my trade network, even if I have some other compelling reason to place a starbase there.

Are my concerns off base? Even if players are unable to orchestrate their trade network directly, will there be some way to exclude military starbases so they don't create unnecessary routes?

I thought you needed at least 1 trade hub to collect it? Do baseline starbases automatically collect from their system?

 

[Ancillary]

I thought you needed at least 1 trade hub to collect it? Do baseline starbases automatically collect from their system?

Not for trade value in the system itself. That is my understanding.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Not for trade value in the system itself. That is my understanding.

In that case, I guess we will have to see what the priority actually is. To some extent the starbase will automatically secure the route near your capitol with it's weapon modules.

 

[Ancillary]

In that case, I guess we will have to see what the priority actually is. To some extent the starbase will automatically secure the route near your capitol with it's weapon modules.

Sure, but I could construct the hypothetical in such a way that the trade route's value exceeds that station's trade protection, whereas before it was a moot point since no trade route existed.

 

[Challenge]

From what I've seen, only a SB with a Trade Hub collects Trade Value. So if you don't put a hub in the border system in reach of the capitol it shouldn't change anything. You'll still collect it directly from your SB with three trade hubs.

 

[Ancillary]

From what I've seen, only a SB with a Trade Hub collects Trade Value. So if you don't put a hub in the border system in reach of the capitol it shouldn't change anything. You'll still collect it directly from your SB with three trade hubs.

Observe this moment in Quill18's playthrough. (Time code is 27:38, if the link doesn't go there.) He completes a starbase in the Peith system, and it immediately starts collecting the 11 trade value in that system and sending it via trade route to his capital, even though the starbase has no modules or buildings.

 

[Challenge]

Start it from the beginning and he says that SBs collect trad value from that system. Trade Hubs collect trade value from systems 1 jump away/TH. Three Trade Hubs will collect from three systems away without building a SB in the system 3 distant from the TH station. What the vid you linked shows is a system 4 jumps distant, out of the TH range, being sent to the HW when the SB is built. It doesn't show a Trade Value within range of the HW being sent, but only one that was out of range being picked up.

This doesn't illustrate the OP's speculative scenario. I'm not saying it would be free from pirates; I'm saying none of the videos I've seen so far illustrate that they would be. Still haven't.

 

[Ancillary]

Start it from the beginning and he says that SBs collect trad value from that system. Trade Hubs collect trade value from systems 1 jump away/TH. Three Trade Hubs will collect from three systems away without building a SB in the system 3 distant from the TH station. What the vid you linked shows is a system 4 jumps distant, out of the TH range, being sent to the HW when the SB is built. It doesn't show a Trade Value within range of the HW being sent, but only one that was out of range being picked up.

This doesn't illustrate the OP's speculative scenario. I'm not saying it would be free from pirates; I'm saying none of the videos I've seen so far illustrate that they would be. Still haven't.

This example was not meant to illustrate the initial scenario, but to refute the idea that only starbases with a trade hub collect trade value. I haven't seen a Let's Player advance far enough into the game to have overlapping collection ranges, though I'm sure they're out there.

 

[Twogs]

Could be interesting for very tall empires who have starbases in most (or all) of their systems.

That could be achieved in earlier versions through habitats + ringworlds (more pops) and repeatables

 

[Challenge]

This example was not meant to illustrate the initial scenario, but to refute the idea that only starbases with a trade hub collect trade value. I haven't seen a Let's Player advance far enough into the game to have overlapping collection ranges, though I'm sure they're out there.

Understood. Misunderstood your point.

 

[Ancillary]

Alright, paydirt. Check out this video.. (Time code is 26:35, if the link doesn't go there.)

The Vorsham system is within collection range of the starbase at Spica. However, the bastion starbase in Vorsham, which has no trade hubs, is the one collecting the trade. The main difference between this and the scenario I outlined above is that the Vorsham starbase was built before Spica had its range extended, so it's possible that precedence is decided by seniority rather than vicinity.

Even if this is the case, it's still a problem. Referring back to the original scenario, if I had built a starbase in that frontier system before building my third trade hub in my capital system, I would still want the capital system to collect the trade. But it seems like the player doesn't get a choice.

 

[PeterPancake]

I would like to push that thread.

Trade hubs should be able to collect trade even in systems with a starbase (without trade hubs). Systems with planets are disincentivized to build starbases (for Deep Space Black Site) because they generate so much trade value and are forced to use that starbase as their trade outgoing location. By 2300-2350 you need to either beeline starbases or use way to much fleet power to protect that 1k-2k trade. Hangars don't work so well with 35 or so trade protection.

And something I want to ask. Even if there is no piracy outbreak (red skull) do you lose trade value through piracy? For example 200 trade value moves in a system with 30 max. piracy (accumulated). Do i get 170 or 200 trade converted into energy?

 

[Incompetent]

It gets really weird when you have your gateway network set up. Everywhere within 5 jumps of a gateway (which could be your entire galaxy-spanning empire) is eligible to be collected directly by your capital, so it's 100% safe from pirates, except for the systems that have starbases. Also, smaller empires are more vulnerable to piracy in this situation than sprawling blobs: the protection value of bastions also effectively stacks globally due to the gateway network, so a big empire will have enough of them to kill the piracy threat from any given system (even if you have lots of systems, the routes won't link together much until they go into the capital system), whereas a smaller empire can't passively suppress nearly as much.

I think at the very least, the capital starbase should always take priority over other starbases for collecting trade.