2.2 robots are nearly worthless (along with Machine Empires, Mechanist, and Synethic Ascension)

[Danny Pockets]

Rogue Servitors need to worry about consumer goods and food. I'd suggest giving them a play before you go saying that robots are just fine.

If I recall from math somebody did earlier in the thread on pop growth speed, Robots cap out at 6.5 while organics can get up to 12/13 in the late game. I'd have go to back and find the post though.

My capital currently has over 8 but I'll take your word for the rest of the planets. If pop growth is the only complaint, is that really not balanced by the other benefits robots receive?

So now it's Rogue Servitors are underpowered in MP? That's an even more modest complaint. That's a fair bit of ground to concede.

 

[Diomades]

My capital currently has over 8 but I'll take your word for the rest of the planets. If pop growth is the only complaint, is that really not balanced by the other benefits robots receive?

So now it's Rogue Servitors are underpowered in MP? That's an even more modest complaint. That's a fair bit of ground to concede.

Haha, mate, I'm not conceding anything. I'm simply offering that there's a lot more going on than your single playthrough experience.

Robots get a few benefits like being able to inhabit any planet but that's held back by the admin cap. I get the impression the intent was that the slow robot growth speed would be offset by having many planets, except energy generation is such a problem that going over admin cap punishes robots even more.

Anyway, that's all I've got to say to you. It seems like you're out to win an argument, but we're not going to agree. So I'd suggest if you have nothing constructive to offer to the discussion other than "they are fine because my experience was blah", you might better spend your time elsewhere too.

 

[Danny Pockets]

Haha, mate, I'm not conceding anything. I'm simply offering that there's a lot more going on than your single playthrough experience.

Robots get a few benefits like being able to inhabit any planet but that's held back by the admin cap. I get the impression the intent was that the slow robot growth speed would be offset by having many planets, except energy generation is such a problem that going over admin cap punishes robots even more.

Anyway, that's all I've got to say to you. It seems like you're out to win an argument, but we're not going to agree. So I'd suggest if you have nothing constructive to offer to the discussion other than "they are fine because my experience was blah", you might better spend your time elsewhere too.

I've been playing tall this play through, so admin cap was never an issue, I never went more than about 30 over it (it's currently at 165 and I think my admin sprawl is 200). Again, maybe this is a play style issue and people need to relearn how to play ME effectively.

I appreciate your fair-minded replies, I didn't mean to offend you. Have a nice day.

 

[Chthon]

I'm not sure where are you going with the first paragraph but it reminds me of very certain approach i've met in various single player games with multiplayer component. "Because most players play single player screw whatever problems occur or are especially visible in multiplayer." Like for some reason you are trying to make opinions and experiences of those who play mp less important or valuable just because it's less of them?

Anyways regarding your second point. You said you catch up to Captain difficulty AI. How can you compare yourself to inept AI that has to cheat massively to not collapse? I brought up MP because everyone start evenly. It's best way to see what's strong and weak, when people use it without cheats. In that scenario you are always behind as ME and you don't get even close to catching up anyone in mid game, even if you are better player. That's how bad robots are.

You don't know where I was going with the first paragraph? I was explaining to you why everyone comes in here looking at it through a single player lens. The grand majority of us play single player. I never said screw multiplayer. I just gave a comparison via a metric I know.

Don't sit here and try to make me sound like I'm arguing something I'm not.

 

[Subcomandante]

. That's a fair bit of ground to concede.

ME have bad growth: As it turns out, only compared to growth specced hives with anomaly console cheats or the contrived meta migration exploit yardstick, where unsurprisingly most will struggle to compete.

Multiplayer appeal to authority: Impossible to verify whether the “common“ MP opinion does not derive from 3rd hand hearsay out of microscopic opinion echo chambers of gamer hysteria somewhere.

ME have bad/slow production: Only by completely viewing it out of context. They have vast bonuses elsewhere, which are conveniently ignored or overlooked due to the confusion of many changes to the basics and multiple patches in quick succession, excercabated by haphazard tooltips.

Synth ascension has lost bonuses it had before and is now “meh“: Nothing was lost, it's much better than before. It's so good a nerf will soon be demanded by common opinion, once they have realized [REDACTED]. Hopefully not, because robots of course.

So yeah, the fear, uncertainty and doubt is strong with this thread.

 

[icon41gimp]

Sorry but Machine Empires are terrible right now. I don't see how a rational player can come to any other conclusion, please come with some data or numbers that show why a ME would be better in general or even specific situations. If a ME is put to any sort of aggression test in the early game they will collapse.

The single bonus that ME have over all other empires is the ability to colonize all world types immediately. The problem is that the time investment for each of their colonies to return positive resources is so incredibly long that this bonus can not be put into reality. No other empire type has such an insane immediate resource drain for each colony, something like the first 4-5 pops on every world do absolutely nothing but allow the colony to begin to function. The most intuitive ME strategy would be to blitz out onto as many nearby worlds as possible to utilize their main bonus but this is economic suicide.

I don't understand why some think the current game play is reasonably balanced. When I play a ME I have to Scrooge McDuck micro every fucking job - closing individual slots to make sure I'm not running too much police or amenity for the first 100+ years. No other empire has to care at that level of detail because their running economic surpluses for easier on their worlds.

Think about this question for a minute - if you had to play a game that would include a human player that spawns in the empire next to you, would you play a Machine Empire? If your goal is even just survive you'd say no.

 

[Kronus]

The biggest problem from the ME is the Assembling jobs and the way to get the max Assembling speed.

 

[SirL]

You understand that I have now, since before writing my post, played a game as ME, right?

Any way, I think I'm arguing with a school kid so I'm not going to reply to you any more, but have a nice day.

Pff. Somebody disagreed, I need to call them something bad, and ignore them.

 

[SirL]

The biggest problem from the ME is the Assembling jobs and the way to get the max Assembling speed.

I am not even sure it's the assembly speed honestly. It is kinda mitigated by the fact, that you can colonise anything. There is a weak point - the speed, there is a strong point - colonise everything and get kinda the same growth speed. The bigger problem for me is their energy problem. When your 30 pop planets with 5 energy districts barely support themselves thats a problem. Organics have an upkeep too - food. But they not only consume less, they produce way more of it.

 

[SirL]

Again, I believe there should be something for ME. Right now they have absolutely nothing besides the 100% habitability and everything else is just worse than any other empire type.

 

[Kronus]

I am not even sure it's the assembly speed honestly. It is kinda mitigated by the fact, that you can colonise anything. There is a weak point - the speed, there is a strong point - colonise everything and get kinda the same growth speed. The bigger problem for me is their energy problem. When your 30 pop planets with 5 energy districts barely support themselves thats a problem. Organics have an upkeep too - food. But they not only consume less, they produce way more of it.

True but with more Assembling speed you could build more Tech-Drones and get more Energy . The problem that you can't build more Tech-Drones by buildings is a other problem....

 

[Jibril]

Multiplayer appeal to authority: Impossible to verify whether the “common“ MP opinion does not derive from 3rd hand hearsay out of microscopic opinion echo chambers of gamer hysteria somewhere.

Impossible to verify? What are you talking about? Multiplayer is a couple of clicks away. No one is stopping you from trying, in fact I encourage you to play MP and start off as a machine empire.

ME have bad growth: As it turns out, only compared to growth specced hives with anomaly console cheats or the contrived meta migration exploit yardstick, where unsurprisingly most will struggle to compete.

Currently it isn't the growth problem, but the economic problems that make machine empires weak. You do realize machine empires do NOT get trade and furthermore has most of their upkeep focused on energy? In a regular empire each planet produces trade that really stack up, it's astounding how much surplus energy bio empires get with trade. You don't even need to be a megacorp. Forget growth, if your economy sucks how are you suppose to maintain a fleet and play on equal grounds as other empires? MEs are way too vulnerable in the critical stages of early and mid game.

...If a ME is put to any sort of aggression test in the early game they will collapse.
.......................
Think about this question for a minute - if you had to play a game that would include a human player that spawns in the empire next to you, would you play a Machine Empire? If your goal is even just survive you'd say no.

Indeed, this guy gets it.

 

[Promethian]

True but with more Assembling speed you could build more Tech-Drones and get more Energy . The problem that you can't build more Tech-Drones by buildings is a other problem....

Food districts and bio reactor but they nerfed that. Also having to use a building slot for this is a huge penalty that just contributes to the problems ME have.

Still, they did give us a tech job on the nexus district. So ME do have more energy available to them which is a big help. However, the amenities nerf hurts big. Its one step forward, two steps back.

 

[Kronus]

Food districts and bio reactor but they nerfed that. Also having to use a building slot for this is a huge penalty that just contributes to the problems ME have.

In the early game the Bio Reactor is nice it's only disadvantage is that it get no bonuses by reasearch or something else. Later in the game are 4 Tech-Drones better than the Bio Reactor .

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I'd say Machine Empires are really polarized atm.

One on side of the spectrum you have Assimilators that grow so fast that they can faceroll more or less anyone and Machine Worlds that are second only to the Matter Decompressor in terms of how overpowered they are. On the other side, you have a distinct energy crisis looming during that mid game that cannot effectively be overcome by expansion, which means you 100% have to beeline for those Machine Worls and/or Habitats or lose a lot of momentum.

I don't play MP, but I'd expect machines to be among the strongest rusher (I guess second to Purifiers?), weak during mid game and insanely powerful late game.

 

[Nakkivene]

I kinda don't get the point of Exterminators now, though. You get... almost nothing, certainly not in permanent terms, by conquering someone with them, while regular MI gets amalgamation slaves.

 

[Promethian]

I'd say Machine Empires are really polarized atm.

One on side of the spectrum you have Assimilators that grow so fast that they can faceroll more or less anyone and Machine Worlds that are second only to the Matter Decompressor in terms of how overpowered they are. On the other side, you have a distinct energy crisis looming during that mid game that cannot effectively be overcome by expansion, which means you 100% have to beeline for those Machine Worls and/or Habitats or lose a lot of momentum.

I don't play MP, but I'd expect machines to be among the strongest rusher (I guess second to Purifiers?), weak during mid game and insanely powerful late game.

I respectfully disagree that only machine worlds fall into the massively overpowered category with the matter decompressor. Ecumenopolis definitely is worthy.

 

[Strich]

I'd say Machine Empires are really polarized atm.

One on side of the spectrum you have Assimilators that grow so fast that they can faceroll more or less anyone and Machine Worlds that are second only to the Matter Decompressor in terms of how overpowered they are. On the other side, you have a distinct energy crisis looming during that mid game that cannot effectively be overcome by expansion, which means you 100% have to beeline for those Machine Worls and/or Habitats or lose a lot of momentum.

I don't play MP, but I'd expect machines to be among the strongest rusher (I guess second to Purifiers?), weak during mid game and insanely powerful late game.

Would you be so kind to provide some savegames from 2200 to "machine world" where I can see with my own eyes what magic you invoke to do more than: explore, colonize, build energy districts, wait until all energy districs + energy building are built and worked on with pops and then eventually build other buildings and fleet?
Oh and pls admiral and above min 800 galaxy size min. 12 ai empires, DE or DA or normal ME are ok.

And can we pls stop arguing with Danny Pockets? He has obvuiosly no clue on ME and provides no concrete point in contrast to other helpful posts in this thread.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I mean I could in theory (I am at home with a laptop that barely manages to run a small map size), but I'd argue that wouldn't really help with the issue discussed here anyway.

Games can differ wildly because of RNG these days, and the issue is certainly more pronounced for Machine empires. I had a game were I ran a -200 E deficit (with edicts) until I got my Habitats and Machine Worlds due to an average 4 E deposits on my planets. Another game I had around 7 per planet - and on top of that I met an agressive neighbor that I managed to leech for dozens of pops early on. You can imagine how far those two empires were apart somewhere into the game. So here you have one factor that is certainly very important to address in the future.

The thing is: Once you know and understand the issue with Machines (mainly their E limitation), you can plan around them and adapt. My first few games with Machines were (and felt) pretty gosh darn bad, but these days I beeline for Habitats and Machine Worlds and pace my expansion around that - and it works fine. The question is if that is really how it should work - and I'd argue having to utilize broken Machine Worlds really isn't really what I'd call "ideal".

The weird thing with machines is that they are more and less flexible than organic at the same times. The E constraints are very, very limiting, but at the same time there is much less overhead in the economy, so everything else is a lot easier to shuffle around in times of need (e.g. war).

It's hard for me to compare them to regular empires, though, given that 99% of the time I play with my Fanatic Pacifist Inward Perfection build that is by default more efficient than pretty much anything out there when it comes to economy. I can say that machines are certainly less flexible than that empire in the early game, probably also a bit weaker. Mid game is... sorta difficult to estimate atm because of all the recent changes. I'd again say that machines are less flexible, at that point because Machine World terraforming is very costly. What I can say with certainty, however, is that in the late game machines are absolutely insane. When their E limitation is overcome, they will outperform any organic empire and the only thing you could do to equalize the field is building a Matter Decompressor - which the machines could just get as well.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

Rogue Servitors need to worry about consumer goods and food. I'd suggest giving them a play before you go saying that robots are just fine.

If I recall from math somebody did earlier in the thread on pop growth speed, Robots cap out at 6.5 while organics can get up to 12/13 in the late game. I'd have go to back and find the post though.

Thinking back to my Hivemind game, I was at around 8.28 growth rate without immigration. I think I picked up most growth bonuses: Building, tradition, research, rapid breeders, food policy etc but maybe I missed something.

I'm playing a Synth ascended empire right now: On planets with 80+ pops you get extra robot assembly jobs on your capitbal building. In addition to my normal robot factory I was able to get >12 growth speed on manufacturing my Robots. I don't know if ME get the same growth later one, but I would guess yes since these should be similar robot manufacturing jobs.

Keep in mind that before I did the synth ascension I was growing pops alongside Robots so my growth pre ascension was already a lot better than a pure Robot empire would get.

Therefore I suggest for Machine only (as in not assimilators or rogue servitors who also grow organics) to get extra robot manufacturer jobs for increases growth speed. The building cost in minerals and upkeep should be reduced aswell.