2.2.4 Beta - The AI is splitting its fleet, hitting me with half of it and losing the war

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MrChoke

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Seems that 2.2.4 (maybe 2.23 as well not sure) is behaving very badly. I have had 3 wars now. In all 3 my fleet strength was roughly the same as the AI. In all 3 games it decided to split its fleet and either it attacked me with it or I attacked him. Either way he loses. And then its rinse and repeat until he loses the war.

I am all for trying to multi-task with multiple fleets. I hate the doomstack problem but this is a game breaker until it's fixed.
 

Razor Feather

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When the ai split its fleet, was it actually doing something with the other portion, or did it just have a great big chunk of its fleet hanging out in some random system doing nothing?
When I was playing 2.2.4 I noticed a lot of the ais doing this sort of thing, where they seemed to have just failed to give a huge chunk of their navy any actual job to do, and each ai had a particular system that was usually near but not actually at their homesystem where they kept these fleets parked. It was really weird to watch a 7k strength fleet sit there while their homeworld was bombed by a 5k fleet. However, this behavior eventually stopped for all of the ais at about the same time later on in that game, and I didnt think to actually file a bug report until after it stopped happening unfortunately.

If it's that sort of behavior that you're seeing, you should probably post a save into the bug report forum.

Outside of that particular issue I have personally generally felt that the ai's tendency to split its forces up actually forces me to do the same else be faced with an issue where I have one fleet occupying their territory and they have two occupying mine, and that tends to just not end well for me unless I also split up. It just doesnt work so well for the ai if they forget to actually deploy the second fleet.
 

LeanneKaos

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My suspicion for what's causing this, albeit a very unconfirmed notion: Piracy.

That is, I suspect the AI is splitting it's fleet to do piracy suppression (either to chase down an active pirate fleet, or just to sit on a system where the piracy has gotten past a certain threshold until it drops back below a different threshold,) and something in the algorithm to determine when it goes chasing pirates is trumping the threat-assessment of your fleet.
 

MrChoke

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Definitely not piracy. He is responding to my attacks. Where I have seen it seems to be when he is trying to take back some of the systems I took. He splits his fleet roughly in half, having one fleet go to a different system. But what it is failing to see is that I have a fleet twice that size right there, or one system away. Of course I am going to pursue and destroy a fleet half my size.

I guess I'll file a bug report. I really wish this AI would be better like it was before 2.1.
 

Chthon

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Definitely not piracy. He is responding to my attacks. Where I have seen it seems to be when he is trying to take back some of the systems I took. He splits his fleet roughly in half, having one fleet go to a different system. But what it is failing to see is that I have a fleet twice that size right there, or one system away. Of course I am going to pursue and destroy a fleet half my size.

I guess I'll file a bug report. I really wish this AI would be better like it was before 2.1.
Does the AI have sensors that can see you?
 

Chthon

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I'm asking about if the AI can see your fleet with sensors, because persistence of memory is a very difficult thing to program. Even if you do it, predicting where your fleet could be is another bit of trouble, to the point of near impossibility at times.
 

ImbaXenoSnipar

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The AI is stupid on both a strategic level (can't run its economy and set up a proper fleet), but also on a tactical level (can't figure out how to attack or defend efficiently once war started) like OP described.

I have also observed what OP is talking about and this started happening after 2.0. I have seen this in many wars. Solving the "doomstack problem" was one of the main motivations of the 2.0 release and why fleets got capped, why combat disparity was introduced and whatnot. In reality, having a doomstack is still the most efficient strategy in 99% of all cases, but the AI likes to pretend that it is not, so it keeps its fleets separated and spread out. As a result, winning wars became considerably easier after 2.0, because you can just catch half of the AI's fleet off-guard, wreck it and then steamroll the remaining half and whatever else is left. By doing this I've won many wars against AIs who had higher fleet power than me, because the AI just refuses to group up. Now in 2.2, it is even easier, because the AI just can't maintain a decently powerful fleet in the first place, but would split it up anyway.

I also have observed the AI just mindlessly suiciding half its fleet attacking my entire fleet docked at one of my bastions instead of combining its entire fleet and docking it at its choke point bastion where it can wait for me and defeat me. The AI is just too dumb to figure this out.
 
Last edited:

Xshu

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In reality, having a doomstack is still the most efficient strategy in 99% of all cases, but the AI likes to pretend that it is not, so it keeps its fleets separated and spread out. As a result, winning wars became considerably easier after 2.0, because you can just catch half of the AI's fleet off-guard, wreck it and then steamroll the remaining half and whatever else is left. By doing this I've won many wars against AIs who had higher fleet power than me, because the AI just refuses to group up.
This. Fighting even a Fallen Empire is relatively simple after a certain point because of the way fleets have been split up: they'll send half their fleet to attack the back of your empire or maybe an ally of yours when they could utterly crush you by simply keeping their ships together. I've goaded fallen empires into attacking me while expecting to lose just so I could research tech from what ships I do manage to destroy, only to end up annihilating their entire navy by accident because they came at me piecemeal.
 

Stars_and_Bars

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This. Fighting even a Fallen Empire is relatively simple after a certain point because of the way fleets have been split up: they'll send half their fleet to attack the back of your empire or maybe an ally of yours when they could utterly crush you by simply keeping their ships together. I've goaded fallen empires into attacking me while expecting to lose just so I could research tech from what ships I do manage to destroy, only to end up annihilating their entire navy by accident because they came at me piecemeal.
The only way to make doomstacks not the optimal way to play is to add some dumb attrition mechanic, and also make battles less important than invading planets and occupying systems.
 

AppleBeam

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I honestly wish they implemented some sort of a silly board mechanic (tiles with units or something) just to make Big Blobs of Death less relevant.

Splitting army in games like Civ makes sense because a small amount of units can hold up a large amount of units. Splitting army in games like Gothic Armada makes sense because of how various AOE abilities, map features and rock-paper-scissors situations play out (there are tons of mechanics, I won't even attempt to list them all).

In Stellaris space is uniform and featureless, except for defense stations which add one point of interest per system, and still optimally defeated by a blob with a larger number written on it. This is just a dead-end approach, from the "fun" point of view, even if it makes the most sense from the "realism" point of view ("realism in this space fantasy setting", you know what I mean).

I'm honestly would be totally fine with an immersion-breaking "well, you can't put two units in one hex" kind of solution if it created reasons to actually think about wars in a strategic way. Not sure if everyone would agree with that, but hopefully people won't argue that doomstacks as the only viable option is a wrong thing.
 

Razor Feather

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I honestly wish they implemented some sort of a silly board mechanic (tiles with units or something) just to make Big Blobs of Death less relevant.

Splitting army in games like Civ makes sense because a small amount of units can hold up a large amount of units. Splitting army in games like Gothic Armada makes sense because of how various AOE abilities, map features and rock-paper-scissors situations play out (there are tons of mechanics, I won't even attempt to list them all).

In Stellaris space is uniform and featureless, except for defense stations which add one point of interest per system, and still optimally defeated by a blob with a larger number written on it. This is just a dead-end approach, from the "fun" point of view, even if it makes the most sense from the "realism" point of view ("realism in this space fantasy setting", you know what I mean).

I'm honestly would be totally fine with an immersion-breaking "well, you can't put two units in one hex" kind of solution if it created reasons to actually think about wars in a strategic way. Not sure if everyone would agree with that, but hopefully people won't argue that doomstacks as the only viable option is a wrong thing.

For a "you cant put two units in one hex" sort of solution that isn't nearly as restrictive or unrealistic as just straight up forbidding multiple fleets to be in one spot, they could add an "inefficient command" penalty where each fleet added past the first applies a multiplicative penalty to the fire rate for all fleets, with one fleet being one command limit worth of ships in a particular battle.

If that penalty were say, 25%, then the first fleet would fire at full efficiency, for a total of 1 fleet worth of fire power. Then the second fleet comes in, and lowers the fire rate of both fleets by 25%, resulting in a total of 1.5 fleets of fire power. Then the third comes in, lowering the fire rate of all fleets to 3/4 of the fire rate the two fleets had, giving around 56% fire rate for each fleet and a total of about 1.7 fleets worth.

Have it be lore justified as the admiralty not being able to handle the excessively "friendly rich" environment, and thus needing to spend extra time coordinating to avoid friendly fire, excessive overkill, and straight up collisions between friendlies. Basically the opposite of how the outnumbered bonus makes it easier for a small force to operate in a "target rich" environment.

This would let outnumbered fleets actually delay the enemy for longer, and give the command limit some more meaning other than requiring a few extra admirals or making the micro of moving a large number of ships around slightly less convenient, without making the outnumbered force able to inflict way more casualties than its supposed to. It could even result in tactics like keeping a reserve fleet ready to join in the battle once the first group of ships gets battered actually useful, since adding a 3rd fleet to a fight at the start wouldn't add as much as maintaining two fleets for longer.

Having disengaged ships still count as being in battle for the inefficient command calculations could also make no retreat and unyielding actually useful and flavorful instead of just stupid since having a higher percentage of ships actually firing would give a substantial bonus to damage output compared to having some disengaged ships lowering the output of the whole fleet. Probably have them count as a fraction of their original value though, otherwise having a single ship refuse to run away for too long would suck.

I'd probably also make command limit somewhat smaller, especially in the late game, as well as boost the overall durability of everything by a fair bit to make it so that time taken in space battles vs time taken in planetary invasions/bombardment would be more balanced and mid battle reinforcement would be more feasible. The formula could also be adjusted to make it more linear, like making it so each extra fleet always adds another .25 fleets of damage, but I feel the geometric method would work better.

EDIT: Should probably mention that the penalty would be scaled if a force was only partially over the command limit, so if an empire had two fleets with a total of 150% of their command limit in a system, their ships would fire at 87.5% normal speed, and 250% of the command limit would mean a fire rate of ~65%.
 
Last edited:

VladMar

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From AI, I have seen so far:

sucide against more powerful fort.
Being passive with whole fleet.
Being passive with half fleet.
Splitting fleets (tho once i have seen pincer like that) and thus sucide.
Pathfinding problems - sending half fleet across galaxy (to get behind? ) only to send it back again and repeating same pattern until he geta obliterated.

Not attacking with allies.
 

LeanneKaos

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PDX needs to teach the AI how to doomstack, because that's how this game should be played as of now.

Heh. I thought 2.0 was supposed to break the doomstack... or at least, make it 'not always the best approach.'
(But then, I was skeptical that their proposals would have all that much affect...)

I'm honestly would be totally fine with an immersion-breaking "well, you can't put two units in one hex" kind of solution if it created reasons to actually think about wars in a strategic way. Not sure if everyone would agree with that, but hopefully people won't argue that doomstacks as the only viable option is a wrong thing.

Lane limits, maybe: make it so only one fleet can use a lane at a time, and put a cooldown timer before the next fleet can move through it. Maybe allow advanced hyperdrives and/or hyperlane registrars to reduce the cooldown.

Then come up with some mumbojumbo to explain why it's based on fleet count instead of ship-count...

For a "you cant put two units in one hex" sort of solution that isn't nearly as restrictive or unrealistic as just straight up forbidding multiple fleets to be in one spot, they could add an "inefficient command" penalty where each fleet added past the first applies a multiplicative penalty to the fire rate for all fleets, with one fleet being one command limit worth of ships in a particular battle.

Sounds similar to the "Force disparity modifer" that 2.0 brought in. Though, that one buffs the smaller force instead of debuffing the larger one; I know a number of people said it would work better and/or be more plausible going the other way (debuffing the larger force) but the math was more complex that way.