2.2.3 market!?

[Saphire]

So I decided to try out the new 2.2.3 system in hope of bug fixes, especially for the market cash one, and I have got to say, wtf? Just... look at this:

Seriously just look. First of all, the 1.3 to .7 ratio is only actually true in the first instance of 100. the others are not. Not only do I have to pay twice as much as I should for 10k worth of food, but selling food is 1/5 the cost of buying it. Now I believe I understand what this is - they are basically saying that buying in bulk is pointless, because this only represents the inflation that would happen if I were to buy 100 at a time, thus deflating/inflating the price. This is honestly broken. I would much prefer that they just stopped market fluctuation instead and kept the prices solid instead of this trash.


Edit: Look, I know that this was worse before the patch, but the wildly different prices just tick me off. I'm not arguing that it is worse than it was before, I'm just saying that It isn't an ideal fix. I can see a lot of people are saying that realistically flooding and draining the market of resources are obviously going to result in wildly different scenarios, but you are missing the point here - paradox didn't make this fix so it would be more realistic, but to fix a bug. So paradox isn't making a war on unrealistic pricing - thus all your points are invalid. Just hear me out - if paradox developed and released a market system that had the old pricing, then that means that they thought that this was both fair and balanced. So again, to literally every comment on this thread, "its realistic", that isn't the point. Paradox didn't do this for the realism. And if I like the system that makes buying and selling in bulk actually somewhat useful, then what's so wrong with that.

(still part of edit) On the other hand, I was not entirely correct about this system shown above. I had just started a new game, so the screenshot above is pretty irrelevant to most people playing the game - I'll be the first to admit that flooding my planet's internal makes with food when I already produce twice as much as they need is just plain stupid, even if I don't like it. When the galactic market comes into play, and if you win the nomination as well get diplomatic traditions then the market fee decreases drastically and the pricing is actually rather balanced.

So the overall point of this edit: I have seen many comments and although I agree that it makes sense, I believe that they are missing the point. On the other hand, the problem wasn't nearly as bad as I had originally believed, because I forgot about many important in game factors.

 

[Gratak]

So I decided to try out the new 2.2.3 system in hope of bug fixes, especially for the market cash one, and I have got to say, wtf? Just... look at this:View attachment 438241
Seriously just look. First of all, the 1.3 to .7 ratio is only actually true in the first instance of 100. the others are not. Not only do I have to pay twice as much as I should for 10k worth of food, but selling food is 1/5 the cost of buying it. Now I believe I understand what this is - they are basically saying that buying in bulk is pointless, because this only represents the inflation that would happen if I were to buy 100 at a time, thus deflating/inflating the price. This is honestly broken. I would much prefer that they just stopped market fluctuation instead and kept the prices solid instead of this trash.

Paradox fixes an exploit. People start screaming...

Buying in bulk is not ineffective. If you try to buy the same with small packages you also pay much more because the prices increases after each transaction.

They finally realized this in 2.2.3 and fixed it. Good that they did because previously the market was free resources.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

I am thrilled to see that they have implemented this realistic atribute of free market systems. Previously you could just buy-sell large batches making you tons of free money.

And on this scale, buying in “bulk” is meaningless. Even one unit of food is an absolutely massive quantity of it!

 

[Saphire]

Paradox fixes an exploit. People start screaming...

Buying in bulk is not ineffective. If you try to buy the same with small packages you also pay much more because the prices increases after each transaction.

They finally realized this in 2.2.3 and fixed it. Good that they did because previously the market was free resources.

My complaint consists of two things - the shown value of food is innacurate, and they fixed it badly. Why is buying food 5x more expensive than selling?

 

[Gratak]

My complaint consists of two things - the shown value of food is innacurate, and they fixed it badly. Why is buying food 5x more expensive than selling?

It is not. Buying insane amounts of food is 5x more expensive than what you get from selling insane amounts of food. Try selling or buying 50% of the stock of a company and see what happens in reality (or buying 50% of the yearly food production of a country).

 

[alexti]

Why is buying food 5x more expensive than selling?

It makes perfect sense. Let's say there are several offers to sell food on the market:
100 @1.30,
300 @1.35,
300 @1.41.
So when you offer to buy 100 food you're matched with the first offer, so your price is 1.30*100. When you offer to buy 500 food you're first matched with the first offer, then with the second, and finally for the last 100 with the 3rd offer. So your total price would be 100 *1.30 + 300*1.35 + 100*1.41.

If you were to sell food you would be matched against offers to buy food which may look like
100 @0.70,
200 @0.68,
200 @0.65,
so the average selling price would be lower the more you sell.

The big spread is due to a very high market fee though. If the market fee was 1-2% the difference wouldn't be so big. It's unclear what would be a realistic market fee on a galactic market, especially considering that galactic market is apparently taking care of shipping.

 

[Mastikator]

My complaint consists of two things - the shown value of food is innacurate, and they fixed it badly. Why is buying food 5x more expensive than selling?

Buying 500 now costs as much as if you had bought 100 five times in a row, the price tag shows how the price will skyrocket or plummet when you buy huge quantities.

My only complaint would be that the UI doesn't actually tell you this information.

 

[wtface]

True, enough food to feed half a billion people for a month! what would that be like 2kg * 30 days * 500 million = 30 billion kg? Plus the packaging.

 

[makaramus]

I do not see problem?
is he raging because its too cheap to buy while too expensive to sell?
because well... market fee
%30 going to market allways

 

[evilcat]

Where is a problem?
When youu organize food sale you need to lower price since there will be abudance of food on the market, but when you need large amout of food sudenly the supplier writes the price. Fair enought.
Now if only PDX could apply some sane logic to sectors.

 

[Etrutian]

I think it would be more useful if the ratio shown was related to 1k buy/sell instead of 100.

 

[SpectralShade]

the problem, I think, is that the interface starts by giving a general price for either buying or selling, but then shows specific prices that are derived by other variables than only the general price shown.

 

[TheGrouch91]

Has anyone here ever played games like Patrician? If you did you should be familiar with this concept.

 

[Custodin]

It makes perfect sense. Let's say there are several offers to sell food on the market:
100 @1.30,
300 @1.35,
300 @1.41.
So when you offer to buy 100 food you're matched with the first offer, so your price is 1.30*100. When you offer to buy 500 food you're first matched with the first offer, then with the second, and finally for the last 100 with the 3rd offer. So your total price would be 100 *1.30 + 300*1.35 + 100*1.41.

If you were to sell food you would be matched against offers to buy food which may look like
100 @0.70,
200 @0.68,
200 @0.65,
so the average selling price would be lower the more you sell.

The big spread is due to a very high market fee though. If the market fee was 1-2% the difference wouldn't be so big. It's unclear what would be a realistic market fee on a galactic market, especially considering that galactic market is apparently taking care of shipping.

Good explanation on how a real market works. Sadly not how it mechanically works in Stellaris (even though I upvoted your post because the explanation adds a lot of flavor and is still reasonable in that sense).
In Stellaris, if you buy food from the market, it is created from "thin air" or so to speak, regardless if someone is willing to sell or not.
Prices go up when you buy stuff, and go down when you sell (depending on the amount of items). That's it basically.
Previously the unit price for 100 and 10 000 etc. was always the same, which was highly exploitable because prices got adjusted drastically after the bulk transactions. So I think they just model 10 000 as 100 transactions of 100 units each (or something similar).
I see 3 main benefits to this approach:
1) Easy to use, since you can just click and instantly buy/sell stuff
2) Market works all the time (including multiplayer) and doesn't depend on people putting stuff on the market
3) A lot easier to implement than a real market

Now I would really like to try how an implementation of a real market system worked. I wonder if this could be modded in?
In this system you would for example go to the market to buy minerals. You'd get a slider for the unit price which would default to the last previous transaction of minerals on the market. And you'd obviously select how many units you want to buy as before.
Similarly someone else would need to put in a sell offer - and the transaction would only go through if the buying price entered would be higher/equal the selling price, and also you would only get things that have actually been put on the market.
I'd wager in this system the monthly trade option would be a lot more useful as well (personally I rarely use it in the current system).

 

[makaramus]

Good explanation on how a real market works. Sadly not how it mechanically works in Stellaris (even though I upvoted your post because the explanation adds a lot of flavor and is still reasonable in that sense).
In Stellaris, if you buy food from the market, it is created from "thin air" or so to speak, regardless if someone is willing to sell or not.
Prices go up when you buy stuff, and go down when you sell (depending on the amount of items). That's it basically.
Previously the unit price for 100 and 10 000 etc. was always the same, which was highly exploitable because prices got adjusted drastically after the bulk transactions. So I think they just model 10 000 as 100 transactions of 100 units each (or something similar).
I see 3 main benefits to this approach:
1) Easy to use, since you can just click and instantly buy/sell stuff
2) Market works all the time (including multiplayer) and doesn't depend on people putting stuff on the market
3) A lot easier to implement than a real market

Now I would really like to try how an implementation of a real market system worked. I wonder if this could be modded in?
In this system you would for example go to the market to buy minerals. You'd get a slider for the unit price which would default to the last previous transaction of minerals on the market. And you'd obviously select how many units you want to buy as before.
Similarly someone else would need to put in a sell offer - and the transaction would only go through if the buying price entered would be higher/equal the selling price, and also you would only get things that have actually been put on the market.
I'd wager in this system the monthly trade option would be a lot more useful as well (personally I rarely use it in the current system).

thin air stuff is there to make pricing easier... so you wont be like "holy shit no one is producing enought food in universe "
but if not enought people producing enought food then prices will keep going up and up forever until you cannot afford it anymore
what you are suggesting is rpg like market where you check prices and buy best offer I assume
-
wich only makes things more complicated... why make system very complicated while reflecting what it meant very good (if there are not enought mats you want to buy prices skyrocket)