[2.1] Civic Trait Elimination

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Bobylein

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IF you like to use vassals, it's not a bad civic at all and you can win with them.
 

serpentskirt

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IF you like to use vassals, it's not a bad civic at all and you can win with them.
I was not able to utilize it well. I tried to cut my influence expenses by colonizing a world, making it a vassal and let it expand in my stead. The problem I run into is that vassal's economy takes really long time to develop to a level where they can claim new systems - they would like to build a proper fleet first, which eats up almost all their income.

You can try to develop their planet and starbase, sure, but their planet's quality is not nearly good enough as your homeworld and by the time you get sufficient develompent there, all the space around will be already claimed. The most annoying stuff is that, even with discount on opinion hit due to relative power, their power will be high enough to be disloyal right from the start - a significant portion of it is coming from naval capacity and hey, you just gifted away one of the starbases which helps to increase it.

I have not tried conquering part of other empire to make it a vassal, but my guesstimation tells me that in that case there will not be much room for expansion too.

So for me the main reason for picking this civic is some crazy RP, where I spawn hell-bent metalhead vassals which guard my tall "inner sanctum" empire. I do not see how it even remotely helps in "regular" play.
 

GloatingSwine

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Technocracy is a nice flavorful civic that also gives a nice boost. Research picks can be acquired in other ways, sure, but they also stack. Stacking this with Science Division from the Discovery tree and the Self-Evolving Logic tech means you'll get three additional tech to pick from. Very handy for when you're trying to get specific techs for ascension perks.

I'm not so sure of the value of stacking all of the research alternatives options. Having one is really good, having two is kinda nice, having all three feels unnecessary.

Technocracy is something you'd ideally replace once you have one of the others unlocked.



The way I see it, there are basically two power starts. Mining Guilds/Slaver Guilds on Fanatic Authoritarian gives you +40% minerals on day one which can be further enhanced with pop traits for up to 60%*

Mechanist/Corporate Dominion on Fanatic Materialist gives you double population growth and offsets the downside of having to build some of your pops with minerals by switching out the cost of colony ships.



* In principle you could do 65%, but Very Strong is a trap because it costs 3 points when it should cost 2. Strong/Industrious/Something is better value. I like Traditional.
 

GloatingSwine

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I was not able to utilize it well. I tried to cut my influence expenses by colonizing a world, making it a vassal and let it expand in my stead. The problem I run into is that vassal's economy takes really long time to develop to a level where they can claim new systems - they would like to build a proper fleet first, which eats up almost all their income.

Vassals are garbage. Fetid horrible stinking garbage with garbage on top.

The problems are legion.

They provide no direct economic benefit, only Tributaries pay taxes, and Fleet Levies got nerfed into the ground.

In war they have all the same problems the AI opponents do, which means that they make stupid decisions about where to go with their fleets, if they aren't just on follow on one of your fleets and arriving late after you've already done all the work. Their fleets are also AI trash fleets which are neither use nor ornament.

They are an active hindrance if they have claims in a war because they do not respect the fact that you are their overlord and your claims and desires should take precedence.

They don't count as you neighbouring others to allow you to take more vassals or tribute.

On any difficulty above Ensign they lose all AI production bonuses, which means that their economy craters and they're even less help than they theoretically could be. (Tributaries crater even faster, usually disintegrating unless they were hive minds).

The only thing vassals are good for is integrating, and if you wanted their stuff you could have just taken their stuff.
 

Dire

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I like to play Egalitarian empires, and I almost always take Parliamentary System for the influence boost. Extra influence means more colonizing as soon as your first faction appears. It seems good to me.

I dislike Functional Architecture. There are better civics to get more minerals, and it just seems really boring unless you like roleplaying a species obsessed with brutalism.
 

Sigma 582

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I'm not so sure of the value of stacking all of the research alternatives options. Having one is really good, having two is kinda nice, having all three feels unnecessary.

Technocracy is something you'd ideally replace once you have one of the others unlocked.
More research alternatives means easier tech beelining if you want fast ascension or whatever. Choosing from 6 out of 10 possible options is still better than from 5 out of 10 (0.4 chance to not get needed tech vs 0.5 which is 20% better).
But I agree that it's better to swap it after you get the techs vital for your build.


Mining Guilds/Slaver Guilds on Fanatic Authoritarian gives you +40% minerals on day one which can be further enhanced with pop traits for up to 60%*
Replace slaver guilds with syncretic evo. - and you retain the same +10% food/mineral on slaves while gaining ability to spec your master race into unity/science/leadership/energy from day one. It also places you in good position for bio ascension and further specialization but in pre-2.2 this way is very micro-heavy which many players frown upon.
 

serpentskirt

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@GloatingSwine not disagreeing with what you've said, but point of my post was that you cannot even utilize the civic for what it was designed.

More research alternatives means easier tech beelining if you want fast ascension or whatever. Choosing from 6 out of 10 possible options is still better than from 5 out of 10 (0.4 chance to not get needed tech vs 0.5 which is 20% better).
But I agree that it's better to swap it after you get the techs vital for your build.
It is actually better than 20%*. Due to odd/even pick weights halving, once number of alternatives reaches half of available technologies to pick you are guaranteed to get what you want at second pick worst case (with the exception of really low-weight stuff like Mega-Engineering).

To present it differently: one has sword (10 damage) and sword+1 (11 damage) - looks like sword+1 is 10% stronger than sword. However, if the monster has 22 HP, sword+1 will kill it in 2 hits, while doing same thing with just sword will require 3 hits - that's 33% more, not 10%. Quite a difference and game balancing is full of such cool and weird shit.

Now, I'm not saying that this places Technocracy in god-tier - it is just really powerful tool if one knows how to utilize it well.

* In this specific case it will be just 20%, overlooked the pool of techs in your example. But I hope the explanation was clear enough.
 
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Big Dead One

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Agrarian Idyll 12
Aristocratic Elite 12
Beacon of Liberty 11
Citizen Service 14 (+1)
Corporate Dominion 16
Cutthroat Politics 15
Distinguished Admiralty 12
Efficient Bureaucracy 5
Environmentalist 13
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Police State 6
Shadow Council 12
Slaver Guilds 15
Technocracy 14
Fanatic Purifiers 15
Driven Assimilator 10
Mechanist 18
Syncretic Evolution 13
Post-Apocalyptic 8
Barbaric Despoilers 5

Citizen Service is very useful, it gives you a flat +15% in naval capacity. As you build more anchorages, the bonus stacks up rapidly.

Exalted Priesthood is useless IMO. Never used it.
 

GloatingSwine

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Replace slaver guilds with syncretic evo. - and you retain the same +10% food/mineral on slaves while gaining ability to spec your master race into unity/science/leadership/energy from day one. It also places you in good position for bio ascension and further specialization but in pre-2.2 this way is very micro-heavy which many players frown upon.

Also not really necessary. Syncretic is a massive pain in the arse because you have to make sure you have the right amount of each pop type on every planet, giving you all the micro of bio ascension from day one because breeding controls only apply at species level not planet/species level.

And you really don't need to specialise for science or energy, especially not early on. Almost all your science for ages will come from space because you won't want to waste a valuable pop at the time it's hard to grow them on doing anything that isn't bootstrapping your mineral economy, and even late on in the game a serious chunk of your energy economy will come from trade hubs.

(Also, using your main species for everything lets you maximise benefits from the events that alter it, like red juicing Very Strong in without paying its trap cost).
 

Sigma 582

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It is actually better than 20%. Due to odd/even pick weights halving, once number of alternatives reaches half of available technologies to pick you are guaranteed to get what you want at second pick worst case (with the exception of really low-weight stuff like Mega-Engineering).
I didn't want to dive that deep but you are right.

To present it differently: one has sword (10 damage) and sword+1 (11 damage) - looks like sword+1 is 10% stronger than sword. However, if the monster has 22 HP, sword+1 will kill it in 2 hits, while doing same thing with just sword will require 3 hits - that's 33% more, not 10%. Quite a difference and game balancing is full of such cool and weird shit.
Also, if you have a sword with 10 damage, then you can kill Monster A with 20 hp in 2 hits and Monster B with 21 hp will need 3 hits which means he's 50% more durable than monster A at this point :)

Also not really necessary. Syncretic is a massive pain in the arse because you have to make sure you have the right amount of each pop type on every planet, giving you all the micro of bio ascension from day one because breeding controls only apply at species level not planet/species level.
just like I said, many people frown upon micro :)
I agree with the point about science spec. Early on you probably want to spec the main race in unity and leadership; science traits become important once you get to build habitats.
 

GloatingSwine

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@GloatingSwine not disagreeing with what you've said, but point of my post was that you cannot even utilize the civic for what it was designed.

For Barbaric Despoilers that doesn't actually alter the value of the civic though.

The fact that the main thing it's designed to do is rubbish doesn't matter, because it has a really good secondary effect. This is the Colossus Project thing again, where the side effect is a better bonus than the main effect but people don't notice.

just like I said, many people frown upon micro :)
I agree with the point about science spec. Early on you probably want to spec the main race in unity and leadership; science traits become important once you get to build habitats.

You don't need leadership early on either, because early on you won't have the lifespan or XP rate bonuses to make it matter.
 

Sigma 582

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"Spec in leadership" means lifespan and xp gain as well, not just +level cap.
E.g. Enduring + Quick learners + Traditional + Weak can be good starting set for master race. If you go for Bio ascension, Enduring gets replaced with Venerable or Robust at some point. If you don't (i.e. no Genetic Resequencing), might get Venerable from the start and add other stuff after you get more trait points from techs.
 
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serpentskirt

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The fact that the main thing it's designed to do is rubbish doesn't matter, because it has a really good secondary effect. This is the Colossus Project thing again, where the side effect is a better bonus than the main effect but people don't notice.
I mean, if picking this civic could actually allow to spend less influence while expanding, people would've been picking it disregard how broken/useless the vassals are.
 

Siri

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To present it differently: one has sword (10 damage) and sword+1 (11 damage) - looks like sword+1 is 10% stronger than sword. However, if the monster has 22 HP, sword+1 will kill it in 2 hits, while doing same thing with just sword will require 3 hits - that's 33% more, not 10%. Quite a difference and game balancing is full of such cool and weird shit.

It's 50% if that's how you want to put it. when sword A has swung 6 times it has killed two monsters, and sword B has killed 3, an increase of 50%.
The problem with presenting it in this way is that if the hp value swings between 1 to 50 at random (not an ideal example but work well enough for the point I want to make) then it won't make a difference which sword you use at hp values 1-10, 12-20, 23-30, 34-40, and 45-50, it only makes a difference if the monster has 11, 21, 22, 31, 32, 33, 41, 42, 43, or 44 hp, which is a total of 10 times out of 50, or 20% and the other 80% of the time, it does nothing.
at 11 you kill things twice as fast (1 swing vs 2 swings)
at 21/22 you kill things 50% faster (2 swings vs 3 swings)
at 31/32/33 you kill things 33% faster (3 swings vs 4 swings)
at 41/42/43/44 you kill things 25% faster (4 swings vs 5 swings)
as you go up higher than this you get the bonus more often, but the speed increase it provides lowers. In this particular span the average increase you get on those 10 health values is 40%, but it only lands on one of those 10 values 20% of the time, so in the end your average increase is 8% (if the range was 1-60 it would be on a bonus 25% of the time, and the average increase when it does would be 33%, for a total average increase of 8,3% so changing the range doesn't alter much). This math is far from flawless of course, and I probably made mistakes too. I agree that game design has a lot of cool quirks to it but I don't think this is a good example to use for this scenario because it's more applicable when you know exactly what values you work with, or at least the exact ranges and how frequently those ranges occur. In other cases you have to work with averages, and also take into account what effect the consequence of failure is because chances are when you fail to get the exact tech you'd ideally want, you still get something good that produces a non-zero value for your empire.
A good game to use examples like this would probably be something like Starcraft 2 where you work with exact values and can say that a +1 increase in damage on a certain unit allows it to kill a certain unit the enemy uses that you're trying to counter in two hits rather than three, and as thus produces a disproportionately large increase in efficiency compared to the actual increase in damage output.

Overall I think what the civic mostly achieves is reducing the amount of times where you feel really screwed over by the random nature of techs, and better allows you to pursue your vision of what you want to do, rather than being as much of an efficiency increase than one might think.
 

GloatingSwine

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"Spec in leadership" means lifespan and xp gain as well, not just +level cap.
E.g. Enduring + Quick learners + Traditional + Weak can be good starting set for master race. If you go for Bio ascension, Enduring gets replaced with Venerable or Robust at some point. If you don't (i.e. no Genetic Resequencing), might get Venerable from the start and add other stuff after you get more trait points from techs.

I guess I'm just not seeing the benefit of it early in the game.

Most leadership bonuses are multiplicative, which means they scale in power with your base set of bonuses. When the base set of bonuses are low, the value of the leadership bonus is also low. When the base set of bonuses are high, the value of the leadership bonus is high. Like take your research speed bonus. It's multiplicative onto your amount of science generated. If you've only got 40 income a level 6 scientist is only worth the equivalent of 4.8 science total, he's worth two science deposits.

So they're things that come into their own mid to late game when you've started to rack those other bonuses up.

(Taking Quick Learners on its own early will rack your scientists up so they can breeze through anomalies and get back to surveying so you can claim more though)
 

Retry

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Well IIRC, tomb worlds have far fewer resources, having mostly science instead of the more "hard" resources. That said, I've never tried Post-Apocalyptic myself, so I don't know if the balance for the homeworld is different than a standard tomb world.
They might, I guess I'd have to check, it's actually been a while since I've played a non-post-apoc playthrough. I've never had an issue with "hard" resources when playing post-apoc though, and general expansion is still limited by Influence and not minerals. The moment you acquire another tomb world that theoretical disadvantage, however little it is, is basically wiped out.

Post-Apocalyptic is not a "challenge" civic.
 

serpentskirt

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Overall I think what the civic mostly achieves is reducing the amount of times where you feel really screwed over by the random nature of techs, and better allows you to pursue your vision of what you want to do, rather than being as much of an efficiency increase than one might think.
Now, I'm not saying that this places Technocracy in god-tier - it is just really powerful tool if one knows how to utilize it well.
Glad we are on the same page.
 

D Inqu

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Someone sneakily added Driven Assimilator to the list. Removing that.

Agrarian Idyll 10 (-2)
Aristocratic Elite 12
Beacon of Liberty 11
Citizen Service 14
Corporate Dominion 16
Cutthroat Politics 15
Distinguished Admiralty 12
Efficient Bureaucracy 5
Environmentalist 13
Exalted Priesthood 4
Feudal Society 10
Functional Architecture 10
Idealistic Foundation 12
Imperial Cult 10
Inward Perfection 17
Meritocracy 13
Mining Guilds 26
Nationalistic Zeal 4
Parliamentary System 14 (+1)
Philosopher King 10
Police State 6
Shadow Council 12
Slaver Guilds 15
Technocracy 14
Fanatic Purifiers 15
Mechanist 18
Syncretic Evolution 13
Post-Apocalyptic 8
Barbaric Despoilers 5

Agrarian Ydyll sounds good on paper, but by mid game, you don't need that many farms. A single well placed Paradise dome can feed all but the biggest planets.
Parliamentary system gives you massive influence boost for whaterver you want to do.

Also, second the idea so just declare Mining guilds to be the Rank 1 (which it is going to be), and remove it from the list.
 

GloatingSwine

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They might, I guess I'd have to check, it's actually been a while since I've played a non-post-apoc playthrough. I've never had an issue with "hard" resources when playing post-apoc though, and general expansion is still limited by Influence and not minerals. The moment you acquire another tomb world that theoretical disadvantage, however little it is, is basically wiped out.

Post-Apocalyptic is not a "challenge" civic.

They spawn with less food tiles, definitely. Not as bad as it used to be, but it still means you have to spend more tiles and pops on early food than others might.
 

serpentskirt

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Day 2
Agrarian Idyll 10
Aristocratic Elite 12
Beacon of Liberty 11
Citizen Service 14
Corporate Dominion 16
Cutthroat Politics 15
Distinguished Admiralty 12
Efficient Bureaucracy 5
Environmentalist 13
Exalted Priesthood 4
Feudal Society 10
Functional Architecture 10
Idealistic Foundation 10 (-2)
Imperial Cult 10
Inward Perfection 17
Meritocracy 13
Mining Guilds 26
Nationalistic Zeal 4
Parliamentary System 14 (+1)
Philosopher King 10
Police State 6
Shadow Council 12
Slaver Guilds 15
Technocracy 14
Fanatic Purifiers 15
Mechanist 18
Syncretic Evolution 13
Post-Apocalyptic 8
Barbaric Despoilers 6 (+1)

Despoilers provide access to Adaptability w/o turning game either into Progress Quest or Genocide Quest. The requirements are not too restrictive as well, there is enough room for some interesting builds. The CB and bombardment stance are indeed not impressive to say the least.

Idealistic foundation sits not low enough in the ranking for what it provides. Correcting this.