[2.1] Civic Trait Elimination

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Siri

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Not to sound rude but, duh. "If this thing that made things cheaper made more things cheaper, it'd be better" isn't very profound.
That wasn't really the point of what I was saying however. The point is that having the reduction on ships is less useful than the reduction would be if it applied to things other than ships because the mineral savings on ships is not that big, and absolutely not enough to warrant the extreme hyperbole that is "your ships cost less than dirt" even without taking into account that upkeep is unaffected which means the actual savings are much smaller than the 15% saved on the construction itself for anything but colony ships since they are "consumed" quickly.

You're really just forcing me to repeat myself; that's a moot point when compared to how much you'll be conquering.
Regrowing the population that you purge off takes many, many, many in game years unless it was conquered shortly after it was settled during which time it would operate at a small fraction of what it does when someone who can keep the pops conquers the same planet. Using neutering counteracts this fairly well but the amount of extra planets you would have to conquer very early is not really feasible when weighed against the cost of the attacks, as well as continued upkeep of an oversized military fleet, that could instead be spent on non-military development. You don't really get many corvettes for the cost of one colony ship. If one builds a basic starting corvette and it lives for 14 years that's already enough to have built one colony ship. It's just more efficient to use those minerals on internal development to snowball to the point where you can roll over everyone with minimal losses. (The fact that Driven Assimilators do not have the drawback of having to purge and instead just gets to fully integrate every conquered pop into the empire quickly is why they are so overpowering when compared to all the other genociders, because having to purge is a colossal drawback.)

There are, however, a few cases where this does not hold true.
1) In the unfortunate circumstance that you get boxed in early. It happens, but unless you're playing on a galaxy that has a very high amount of empires in relations to its size it is rare.
2) You are playing on a galaxy with a very low amount of habitable planets.
3) The difficulty setting of AI empires is not at a point where it provides any challenge even in the early game with potential difficulty bonuses.

The common theme for both case 1 and 2 is that your opportunity for spending on development within your borders gets very restricted, in which case you have to fight yourself out or you will suffer for it. While these are cases where FP is stronger than they otherwise would be, it either happens too rarely, or is too dependent on very specific galaxy settings to be too much of a consideration. In the case of number 3, while that could be a valid argument too, I don't consider it as such because unless the game is set at a level where the individual is faced with challenging opponents the entire process is devalued.

I also think it is worthy of note that if there were difficulty settings above Grand Admiral with advanced starts, FP would scale worse into it because the more dangerous your opponents are to you, the worse FP gets both on account of its weaker economic potential as well as its diplomatic penalty because you're much more likely to get smashed by stronger enemies.

LOL purifiers being eliminated before agrarian idyll and inward perfection is a travesty. FP gets you to victory faster than every other civic on the list

-

Agrarian Idyll and Inward Perfection lock you into pacifism which makes it laughably difficult to win without switching off of them.

Quick is not synonymous with best. It is also very easy to switch out of pacifism thanks to the worm in waiting event which can be forced with little effort.
 

ffsffs1

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the forums are dominated by what we used to call sim city players back in the old RTS days

just look at how long TA lasted in the perk elimination thread

Not really sure what you mean by this. I've played more inward perfection games than purifier games, and I play more tall-pacifist games than wide-conquest games (so maybe I qualify as a sim city player?), but to me its obvious that stuff like purifiers is the obvious choice for winning quickly.
 

Methone

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but colony ships since they are "consumed" quickly.
If they're being consumed quickly, you're losing.
Regrowing the population that you purge off takes many, many, many in game years unless it was conquered shortly after it was settled during which time it
Right, which is... exactly the situation I've had in my Purifier games. All my genocidal games, in fact. I find a nearby empire when we're all at like 2-3 planets, eat them, and from there laugh at everyone.
that could instead be spent on non-military development.
That's just it, though. With the cost reductions you can do both. Build your mining stations and outposts and occasionally press the Corvette button.
The fact that Driven Assimilators do not have the drawback of having to purge and instead just gets to fully integrate every conquered pop into the empire quickly is why they are so overpowering when compared to all the other genociders, because having to purge is a colossal drawback.)
I disagree. Assimilators are better at snowballing due to the reasons you suggested, but they have a tougher time snowballing to begin with. Genociders will always, always, always have an easier time with the initial 'pounce' than an Assimilator, and unless it's MP, if you win the initial pounce you're golden.
In the unfortunate circumstance that you get boxed in early. It happens, but unless you're playing on a galaxy that has a very high amount of empires in relations to its size it is rare.
Honestly, this is probably what's causing our disagreement. I always play with a very crowded galaxy, so I tend to meet my first neighbor pretty early.
 

ffsffs1

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Default settings means ensign with no advanced neighbours.

While purifier races can end up in tricky early game spots playing on higher difficulties with advanced neighbours, those aren't the settings described in the OP. Against non-advanced neighbours on ensign, running over your first empire is an easy task basically 100% of the time, and from there its a total snowball.
 

TheTam

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FP out are you mad?
You just eat every neighbour and win. Why do I care what the others think if I win every space battle?
With Total War this is one if if not the fastest victory screen possible
 

Siri

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If they're being consumed quickly, you're losing.
Uhm, what? When I say the colony ship gets consumed I am referring to the process in which you use it up in order to establish a colony, at which point it stops paying an upkeep cost. And that the lower the amount of time you pay upkeep for a ship, the closer you are to truly receiving the 15% discount on construction.

Right, which is... exactly the situation I've had in my Purifier games. All my genocidal games, in fact. I find a nearby empire when we're all at like 2-3 planets, eat them, and from there laugh at everyone.
The problem is then that the value of conquering a recently established planet is that the value taken is even lower because it will have next to nothing built on it, nor many pops to work to death. It does mean it takes less time for an FP to get up to the same level as another empire because they are less behind starting out, but it also makes the conquest even less cost efficient.

That's just it, though. With the cost reductions you can do both. Build your mining stations and outposts and occasionally press the Corvette button.
If the cost reduction was 50% then yeah, you could. It's not though, so you can't do both efficiently. It is also horribly inefficient to "occasionally press the corvette button" because that way you start paying upkeep way before the ships become useful to you. You save up, build all at once, then attack.

I disagree. Assimilators are better at snowballing due to the reasons you suggested, but they have a tougher time snowballing to begin with. Genociders will always, always, always have an easier time with the initial 'pounce' than an Assimilator, and unless it's MP, if you win the initial pounce you're golden.
That's not really true though because DA also comes with other benefits. They get both bio and robo pop growth as a very strong bonus so even if their ships happen to be individually weaker they're still going to be at least equal or even stronger in terms of military because they can more quickly build an economy that supports a bigger fleet which makes up for the lower firepower of individual ships. It's not really any more difficult to win the "initial pounce", as you call it.

I will however note that all my observations are based on SP, because in MP the FP penalties can matter much less depending on how many AI empires are in the game, if any, as well as how likely other players are to trade with you if you play an empire that has diplomacy enabled. And also that if you do play on crowded galaxies that would make more sense, although I am not sure I think it is a good idea to base ratings upon situations that mostly occur when using specific galaxy settings, just as I wouldn't vote on the power levels of different choices when playing with x0.25 or x5. But that may also be why a lot of people who aren't you agree that it was FP's time to go, because I don't think most people play in super crowded galaxies.

Default settings means ensign with no advanced neighbours.

While purifier races can end up in tricky early game spots playing on higher difficulties with advanced neighbours, those aren't the settings described in the OP. Against non-advanced neighbours on ensign, running over your first empire is an easy task basically 100% of the time, and from there its a total snowball.

While that is TECHNICALLY accurate, that also means that all civics are equal because you have to have the end-game year set at 2400, and on crisis difficulty at x1 you can absolutely eradicate the crisis as soon as it appears regardless of what civics you have picked, and at that point the entire thread is pointless because the objective wasn't to just see the victory screen it was to see the victory screen as well as defeat the crisis. A more reasonable interpretation of default settings is that it applies to everything except Difficulty, Scaling Difficulty, AI Aggressiveness, Advanced Neighbours, and Crisis Strength and assume that people play on a difficulty setting that actually provides a challenge for them because that is a better indication of what choices allows a player to succeed when the game is not a walkover. Truthfully though having the end-game set at 2400 still makes it kind of a walkover for many players even if the rest of the settings are put at max but it should still probably be forced to default because changing the end-game date is something that actually changes the relative power of empire choices significantly.
 

Methone

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When I say the colony ship gets consumed I am referring to the process in which you use it up in order to establish a colony, at which point it stops paying an upkeep cost.
Ah, thought you meant 'the corvette gets consumed quickly'.
The problem is then that the value of conquering a recently established planet is that the value taken is even lower because it will have next to nothing built on it, nor many pops to work to death.
So? You use Extermination purge to get rid of them quickly with no time for Unrest events, and no need to sink 300 minerals each into Strongholds. A planet is a planet is a planet. I get that you want to assert that unless you conquer a fully developed planet and integrate its entire population it's not worth it, but come on.
If the cost reduction was 50% then yeah, you could. It's not though, so you can't do both efficiently.
Dude. Word of advice. Don't tell me you 'can't do something' when I've done that something.
hey get both bio and robo pop growth as a very strong bonus
If this were even remotely true, Mechanists would also be on even grounds with Purifiers. And yet, I ran over my mechanists with my purifiers easily, but when I played the reverse it was not true.
and on crisis difficulty at x1 you can absolutely eradicate the crisis as soon as it appears regardless of what civics you have picked
Not everyone can beat Grand Admiral, 2250 endgame, 5x crisis with a Post-Apocalyptic Imperial Cult. There are people who,have difficulty with 1x crisis at normal date.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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And so it comes down to minerals, versus unity, versus influence.

Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 23
Inward Perfection 28
Mechanist 29 (+1)
Mining Guilds 43
Parliamentary System 19
Slaver Guilds 21
Syncretic Evolution 10 (-2)


Syncretic Evolution is fun, but thanks to the way it affects population growth, what should be an incredibly potent start becomes a middle of the road buff.

Mechanist is, as always, much more powerful than people are giving it credit for.
 

Siri

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Ah, thought you meant 'the corvette gets consumed quickly'.
It happens! I was actually trying to make an argument in favour of the FP bonus there :D

So? You use Extermination purge to get rid of them quickly with no time for Unrest events, and no need to sink 300 minerals each into Strongholds. A planet is a planet is a planet. I get that you want to assert that unless you conquer a fully developed planet and integrate its entire population it's not worth it, but come on.
If it comes across as me saying it isn't worth it at all, then I am coming across in a way that I did not intend. It is worth it, given the picks you have already made going down the line of FP. What I want to convey is that conquering early is another thing that cuts into the total value of the spoils of war relative to the investment made to do so. They are things that add up in a way that you have to conquer so so many planets to make it compare to just developing internally and only going to war when it is getting to the point where it is either the only option left for expansion or when you are at the point where you can do it in a quick war with little to no losses while only using ships which cost do not in any way cut into the peaceful development.
I also think you are better off managing the unrest than Exterminating, and just using Neutering purge instead. It's a 30% happiness penalty but no other production penalties, in exchange you get to keep the workforce for decades which actually lessens some of the issues with FP, and is actually a nice benefit FP has over Devouring Swarm and Determined Exterminators.

If this were even remotely true, Mechanists would also be on even grounds with Purifiers. And yet, I ran over my mechanists with my purifiers easily, but when I played the reverse it was not true.
And they are, but not as much as DA is because there are differences in how their dual growth works. DA gets to pick traits for both of their starting pop types, mechanist does not. DA also gets to colonise any planet they want with 100% habitability right away, Mechanist has to research drones first and even then face production penalties. Mechanist still has a very strong start, but it's not as strong as that of DA.

Not everyone can beat Grand Admiral, 2250 endgame, 5x crisis with a Post-Apocalyptic Imperial Cult. There are people who,have difficulty with 1x crisis at normal date.
Absolutely, that is why I think it is important that people pick settings that challenge the individual playing rather than applying a cookie cutter difficulty setting for everyone. I also think the "not everyone can" is an argument that hurts FP more than it helps, because the people who are less good at playing the game are the people who are more likely to be hurt by the early aggression that FP can bring upon you.

Either way I am going to bed now, but I will gladly debate the pros and cons of FP or any other civic whenever I am not sleeping or working.
 
Last edited:

Cry_Havok

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Hmm... if safe and easy is the goal, then shouldn't we be looking for civics that help with a diplo/Federation win?

There are, any Civic that is Xenophile compatible helps. Also civics that don't require slavery open up more diplomatic opportunities (many AI personalities dislike slavery). Pacifists in general also are lacking in diplomatic penalties (only honor bound warriors), and democracy compatibility helps as well (Demo Crusaders seem very common AIs)

Probably the best Fed/Diplo build is F.Xenophile Egalitarian with Mining Guilds and Parlimentary system with Democratic Authority. Oligarchy with Corp Dominion, and Democracy with Mining Guilds/Syncretic are also good "no one will ever dislike me" options.

Militaristic/Diplomatic hybrid can go with F-Militarist Xenophile, Citizen Service, Mining Guilds

Going materialistic gets more risky, because you will anger evangalizing Zealots, but F-Xenophile and Mechanist with democracy is another reasonably diplomacy enabled option
 

Methone

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They are things that add up in a way that you have to conquer so so many planets to make it compare to just developing internally and only going to war when it is getting to the point where it is either the only option left for expansion or when you are at the point where you can do it in a quick war with little to no losses while only using ships which cost do not in any way cut into the peaceful development.
Yes but I want to stress this - again and again - you don't have to pick between building up and developing internally.

It's a 30% happiness penalty but no other production penalties
I've never actually tried Neutering Purge. Wouldn't it be -70% for the first 10 years due to the Recently Conquered penalty? At that point you're better off just death-squadding them. It's actually one of the reasons I think Swarm is more troublesome than the other two - Exterminators and Purifiers don't have to deal with their Unrest nonsense for long, even if Swarm ships can just keep fighting forever.

, but it's not as strong as that of DA.
Maybe I've just been playing DA wrong. My only DA game to date, I entirely leaned on not having to build every single one of my pops at the cost of an outpost. I got to absorb the Barbaric Despoiler peacocks I spawned next to. And when I met up and federated up with the local Exterminator... well, you can imagine the rest.
 

Archon87

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Let me chime in here and say that there is nothing stopping purifiers from building robots. I'd heartily recommend it, in fact, especially if you're not playing the spiritualist version of purifiers. Having robots helps mitigate the "purge them all" conquest style and allows you to get those planets producing faster.
 

bunkerman

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Doctor Bones

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Sigma 582

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Agrarian Idyll and Inward Perfection lock you into pacifism which makes it laughably difficult to win without switching off of them. How the hell inward perfection is at +32 given the goals is beyond me.
*sigh*
Pacifist and "pacifist-start" victory is definitely a thing. Yes, you start on the defensive side, but it gives you the strongest economy and then military, so it's easy to survive and keep/increase advantage. Move towards victory screen starts when you are sure you have enough advantage in your pockets.
 

Silens

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Siri

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Yes but I want to stress this - again and again - you don't have to pick between building up and developing internally.
The situations I previously outlined aside, you do have to pick unless you wait quite a while to do so. Even making 500 or more minerals a month 50 years into the game you can spend all minerals on internal development and every military ship built at that point still cuts into internal development. The thing is also that once you reach the tipping point of being able to do it without cutting into internal development, you can build so many ships that the FP combat bonuses are pointless. You can repeat the same times as many times as you want, repetition is not an argument. It's quite a basic principle, every time you take and use a resource it precludes you from using it for something else and the point where you can't pour more resources into development is many years into the game.

I've never actually tried Neutering Purge. Wouldn't it be -70% for the first 10 years due to the Recently Conquered penalty? At that point you're better off just death-squadding them. It's actually one of the reasons I think Swarm is more troublesome than the other two - Exterminators and Purifiers don't have to deal with their Unrest nonsense for long, even if Swarm ships can just keep fighting forever.
It's kind of a pain but totally worth it. Yeah, they have massive happiness penalties for the first ten years but those penalties only affect some types of production and after those ten years you have another 40 or so years of using them before they go away (Neutered pops lives for 75% of the species regular lifespan). They also don't all disappear simultaneously so you get a bit of growth time before the next one disappears and so on. It becomes a gradual replacement essentially.

Maybe I've just been playing DA wrong. My only DA game to date, I entirely leaned on not having to build every single one of my pops at the cost of an outpost. I got to absorb the Barbaric Despoiler peacocks I spawned next to. And when I met up and federated up with the local Exterminator... well, you can imagine the rest.

Honestly I couldn't tell you if you're doing it wrong without seeing it, I do think it's likely that you are doing something wrong based on your perceived power level of the government type though, I just couldn't say what. Yeah, pops are kind of expensive to build since they cost about the same as a mining station, but they will also produce more than a mining station. To make a horrible comparison it's sort of (but not really) like having extra planetary bodies to build mining stations at. Of course that comparison has a ton of flaws but hopefully it serves well enough to illustrate a point.

Let me chime in here and say that there is nothing stopping purifiers from building robots. I'd heartily recommend it, in fact, especially if you're not playing the spiritualist version of purifiers. Having robots helps mitigate the "purge them all" conquest style and allows you to get those planets producing faster.

Oh yes, 120%, but everyone should be using robots outside of roleplay reasons. Even spiritualists should use them despite the happiness penalty (which is 5%, I am fairly sure) because the benefit of robots vastly outweighs that minor happiness penalty. I wholeheartedly support the notion that FP should be building robots, but everyone should be so it doesn't really let them catch back up much faster unless the conquered planet where the comparison is being made had no room for robots unless purging first takes place.
 

Iron Spirit

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Syncretic Evolution going before Parliamentary System and Citizen Service. smh
 

Sigma 582

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Down with your mineralism, time of naked corvettes is long gone!
The true strength is number of ships (which comes from minerals) multiplied by their power (which comes from techs). I often find myself capped on minerals while running fleet numbers at the cap, but you can never have too many repeatables.

What gives you lots of research (lots I mean around 30-50-month turnaround for weapon-related repeatables plus doing a lifespan repeatable every 5-6 years) is a few dozen research-oriented habitats which are best built and filled up with IP. Also, all that unity lets you constantly run all necessary ambitions (ideally, you want Scientific Revolution, Architectural Renaissance, Omnifarious Acquisition, Grand Fleet and Will to Power running simultaneously; for example, on 15% edict cost discount and some 17 years edict duration it means you need Unity income at level which would allow unlocking traditions every 48 months)
 

Mastikator

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