[2.1] Civic Trait Elimination

[bunkerman]

@Siri too bad it goes out the window in less than 48 hours

 

[Methone]

Agrarian Idyll 3 (-2)
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 4(+1)
Inward Perfection 32
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 20
Syncretic Evolution 14

Why is Purifiers being killed it's one of the BEST civics to get you the 40% Planets victory what are you people thinking?!

 

[moyang]

Agrarian Idyll 1 (-2)
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 5(+1)
Inward Perfection 32
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 20
Syncretic Evolution 14

FP is love, FP is life. Plus it's ridiculously good.
And being a Fanatic Pacifist isn't too good.

 

[Cry_Havok]

Agrarian Idyll 1
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 23 (+1)
Fanatic Purifiers 2 (-2)
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 20
Syncretic Evolution 14

Corp Dominion, while somewhat restricted, is not that hard to get (can't be Fan Authoritarian or Xenophobe basically), and makes early game expansion easy. Energy is easy to get and limited usefulness, where as minerals are life.

Purifiers are hard mode, cutting out most the game for military bonuses. You against the universe is hardly ideal, sure it can win the game, but is it the most efficient? If you want to warmonger, there are much safer ways to do it that don't involve player vs map. FP is for RP space Nazis, not for winning.

 

[AlanC9]

Purifiers are hard mode, cutting out most the game for military bonuses. You against the universe is hardly ideal, sure it can win the game, but is it the most efficient? If you want to warmonger, there are much safer ways to do it that don't involve player vs map. FP is for RP space Nazis, not for winning.

Hmm... if safe and easy is the goal, then shouldn't we be looking for civics that help with a diplo/Federation win?

 

[Siri]

I'll sneak in my vote just after midnight this time, and fix some errors that occured in Cry_Havok's list. (one point missing from FP and IP, which is sad because I would have loved to be the one to kill FP off)

Agrarian Idyll 1
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 23
Fanatic Purifiers 1 (-2)
Inward Perfection 32
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 21 (+1)
Syncretic Evolution 14

Votes are a result of discussion and arguments from past couple of pages.

Why is Purifiers being killed it's one of the BEST civics to get you the 40% Planets victory what are you people thinking?!

Overrated. The game is won through a strong economy that leads to advantages in other fields. FP trades economic benefits for combat bonuses and while they are nice, the lost avenues in terms of economy hurts actual strength. Being attacked is often harmful even if you win the war, as is attacking as soon as one can win a war. It forces you to spend resources on war rather than development so even when winning it doesn't guarantee that you come out ahead of where you would be if just focusing on development until you can effortlessly squash the AI empires, which happens quite early even on non-scaling GA when played properly. It's just more efficient to get economic advantages that gets you to that point sooner.

@Siri too bad it goes out the window in less than 48 hours

Well, yes. That kind of goes for this whole thread though, I just enjoy learning things

 

[Retry]

Agrarian Idyll 1
Citizen Service 16 (+1)
Corporate Dominion 23
Fanatic Purifiers -1 (-2)
Inward Perfection 32
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 21
Syncretic Evolution 14

 

[Siri]

Fanatic Purifiers -1 (-2)

My only regret is that I wasn't the one who got to do it.
*high five*

 

[Methone]

The game is won through a strong economy that leads to advantages in other fields.

And FP gives economic advantages, mainly in the form of "Your ships cost less than dirt now." I don't know how you're playing Purifiers that you're actually weaker than you'd be without it. You pounce on a single empire and you can run away with the game effortlessly.

FP is for RP space Nazis, not for winning.

If that were the case, it'd be ONLY a -1000 opinion penalty. But it's very clearly not. You get more, cheaper, stronger ships, and the best CB in the game. If that's not "Hey, you're going to win by snowballing" then I don't know what is.

Hmm... if safe and easy is the goal, then shouldn't we be looking for civics that help with a diplo/Federation win?

I don't think there are any.

 

[Siri]

And FP gives economic advantages, mainly in the form of "Your ships cost less than dirt now." I don't know how you're playing Purifiers that you're actually weaker than you'd be without it. You pounce on a single empire and you can run away with the game effortlessly.

It is better than nothing, but worse than the advantages the remaining civics offer. You speak as if the cost reduction on the ships is in the order of 50% when it is nowhere near that much, it's 15% (despite the tooltip saying 25%, which is incorrect) which is nice but not that big of a deal. This reduction does also not affect upkeep. FP also ironically benefit less from conquest than other empires because they have to purge the population rather than being able to keep that workforce indefinitely.

 

[Methone]

It is better than nothing, but worse than the advantages the remaining civics offer.

I entirely disagree. I'd even debate Mining Guilds being better for winning.

) which is nice but not that big of a deal.

It's better than you think, I say. It affects constructors and colony ships too, and stacks additively with the Prosperity opener.

Hit reply too soon: "FP also ironically benefit less from conquest than other empires because they have to purge the population rather than being able to keep that workforce indefinitely." - I argue that this is moot when compared to how much you'll be flat-out conquering.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Agrarian Idyll 1
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 23
Inward Perfection 32
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 18 (+1)
Slaver Guilds 21
Syncretic Evolution 12 (-2)

Another day, another vote (decided to go Stellaris themed with the colours)

Parliamentary System really is under represented and again gets my vote. If you're running an egalitarian civ with a big, loyal populace and with a few rivalries, you can get something like +10 influence by mid-game, which if combined with Xenophile makes for easy claims and allies to boot, with still more influence to enact useful edicts. It's the best way to acquire the rarest resource.

Syncretic gets my down vote this time. It can be useful if running an authoritarian empire, but the growth bonus is a detriment, plus you have to have very particular trait picks to make it work.

 

[Siri]

I entirely disagree. I'd even debate Mining Guilds being better for winning.

You're certainly free to both disagree and try to argue for it beating all other civics in the game, but I believe it more likely that the source of the disagreement is either that you're not fully utilising all the things that FP takes away from you, or that you're playing on game settings that has the AIs starting out weak enough that conquering them requires little investment even early in the game. Trading with AI empires is something that almost no one does enough, and I feel most people even claim it is close to useless when it is actually incredibly powerful and can be the source of huge lump sums of income of both energy and minerals.

It's better than you think, I say. It affects constructors and colony ships too, and stacks additively with the Prosperity opener.

I am aware of how it works, and it does qualify as a tangible economic benefit, just not a very big one. If it applied to buildings as well, as the Prosperity opener does, it would be significantly stronger than it is, or if it applied to mining stations and starbases costs, or if it also applied to ship upkeep, but when it is just ship build cost it's just not that impactful.

I argue that this is moot when compared to how much you'll be flat-out conquering.

Even if one changes the purge type to Neutering instead of the default, which lets you keep the population for quite a long time, it is still a very significant drawback. Not only does it mean it takes longer to get a planet to full efficiency, it may also mean having to fill the planet with pops that have to deal with big habitability penalties. While that is still worthwhile, it further reduces the efficiency of conquered planets.

 

[Methone]

but I believe it more likely that the source of the disagreement is either that you're not fully utilising all the things that FP takes away from you

I like to think I quite fully use things FP takes away in my non-FP games. The argument is that what FP does give you is better for winning than what it takes away.

If it applied to buildings as well, as the Prosperity opener does, it would be significantly stronger than it is

Not to sound rude but, duh. "If this thing that made things cheaper made more things cheaper, it'd be better" isn't very profound.

While that is still worthwhile, it further reduces the efficiency of conquered planets.

You're really just forcing me to repeat myself; that's a moot point when compared to how much you'll be conquering.

We can go back and forth all day of "No, YOU are playing worse!" We'll simply have to agree to disagree. It's dead in anycase, no matter how much I scream and shout.

Hail to the Mining Guilds, I guess.

 

[Retry]

Agrarian Idyll 1
Parliamentary System really is under represented and again gets my vote. If you're running an egalitarian civ with a big, loyal populace and with a few rivalries, you can get something like +10 influence by mid-game, which if combined with Xenophile makes for easy claims and allies to boot, with still more influence to enact useful edicts. It's the best way to acquire the rarest resource.

The influence is nice, I wish it were multiplicative with Egalitarianism's buff instead of additive.

 

[fishworshipper]

Agrarian Idyll -1 (-2)
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 23
Inward Perfection 32
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 43 (+1)
Parliamentary System 18
Slaver Guilds 21
Syncretic Evolution 12

Down with fanatic pacifism, all glory to the Minerals!

 

[ffsffs1]

LOL purifiers being eliminated before agrarian idyll and inward perfection is a travesty. FP gets you to victory faster than every other civic on the list. Seriously, someone can post any default settings run using any combination of the civics (non FP) and I will beat it by 30 years using purifiers. Total war CBs from turn 1 is the single strongest snowballer in the game.

Agrarian Idyll and Inward Perfection lock you into pacifism which makes it laughably difficult to win without switching off of them. How the hell inward perfection is at +32 given the goals is beyond me. Anyways:

New
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 23
Inward Perfection 30 (-2)
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 43
Parliamentary System 19 (+1)
Slaver Guilds 21
Syncretic Evolution 12

Parliamentary system because influence is the hardest resource to accumulate in the game.

 

[Badesumofu]

Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 23
Inward Perfection 28 (-2)
Mechanist 28 (+1)
Mining Guilds 43
Parliamentary System 19
Slaver Guilds 21
Syncretic Evolution 12

IP is certainly powerful, but I'm not convinced it's especially helpful for the stated criteria.

Mechanist is obviously strong. I'm voting for it over Mining Guilds because MG is boring and things that are boring make it less likely that I will want to stick with a run to completion.

 

[Derp]

LOL purifiers being eliminated before agrarian idyll and inward perfection is a travesty. FP gets you to victory faster than every other civic on the list. Seriously, someone can post any default settings run using any combination of the civics (non FP) and I will beat it by 30 years using purifiers. Total war CBs from turn 1 is the single strongest snowballer in the game.

the forums are dominated by what we used to call sim city players back in the old RTS days

just look at how long TA lasted in the perk elimination thread

 

[Methone]

LOL purifiers being eliminated before agrarian idyll and inward perfection is a travesty. FP gets you to victory faster than every other civic on the list. Seriously, someone can post any default settings run using any combination of the civics (non FP) and I will beat it by 30 years using purifiers. Total war CBs from turn 1 is the single strongest snowballer in the game.

Agrarian Idyll and Inward Perfection lock you into pacifism which makes it laughably difficult to win without switching off of them. How the hell inward perfection is at +32 given the goals is beyond me.

Amen.