[2.1] Civic Trait Elimination

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Sigma 582

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They're the same until you get a third civic slot. Because Strong/Industrious/Slaver Guilds/Mining Guilds is the same as Strong/Industrious/Servile/Mining Guilds.
I see.
so, slavers and syncretic give the same mineral/food, but syncretic gives better leaders and potentially faster traditions (yes, Traditional trait).
slavers can be changed, syncretic can't.
you can add slavers on top of syncretic as 3rd civic but can't do otherwise.

syncretic still looks a bit better to me than slavers
 

Archon87

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Agrarian Idyll 8 (-2)
Citizen Service 18
Corporate Dominion 21
Fanatic Purifiers 9
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 29
Mining Guilds 41
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 18
Syncretic Evolution 16 (+1)

I really have no idea why people keep upvoting Agrarian Idyll. None of the people who have done so have explained themselves. It requires you to have Fanatic Pacifist, which means no offensive wars, which is an active detriment to winning the game under the current conditions. And that is the whole point of this contest, not popularity.

I'll upvote Syncretic Evolution mostly because I think people are undervaluing it just because of the micro. Having two species at the start means you can specialize both of them differently, which is a big plus for anyone, but especially slavers.
 

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I really have no idea why people keep upvoting Agrarian Idyll. None of the people who have done so have explained themselves. It requires you to have Fanatic Pacifist, which means no offensive wars, which is an active detriment to winning the game under the current conditions. And that is the whole point of this contest, not popularity.
It's not that bad as you can fill out traditions pretty fast and have tons of unity for Ambitions, but requires special approach. You can:

A) spam habitats to the point where they make 40% of the galaxy and you win the game;

B) cheese Worm event to flip the switch to militarism;

C) go for Federation victory: embrace your second ethic to become non-fanatic pacifist, enable liberation wars and go around liberating everyone and pulling them into your Fed;

D) take the slow and influence-expensive path of conversion:
  1. genemod your race to be [very] strong deviants
  2. destroy your Satramene gas mining stations if you have any
  3. embrace your second ethic, so that you become non-fanatic pacifist
  4. have as many rival neighbours as you can
  5. enable Liberation wars and wardec someone
  6. suppress your governing ethics (esp. pacifism)
  7. wait years/decades being in war until enough pops convert to militarism to form a party
  8. promote militarist party until they have 20%
  9. embrace militaristm
  10. bring back Satramene, remove Deviants (can temporarily replace them with conformists) and optionally, run Hearts and Minds ambition if you want to get rid of unhappy pacifists faster.
 

Siri

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Guess I'll actually throw in my vote for the day too so I don't forget.

Agrarian Idyll 8
Citizen Service 18
Corporate Dominion 21
Fanatic Purifiers 7 (-2)
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 29
Mining Guilds 42 (+1)
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 18
Syncretic Evolution 16

At this point I feel FP is truly the worst civic on the list, and that it should already have been voted out. Why that is the case I have already covered more than once previously.
 

Doctor Bones

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Agrarian Idyll 8
Citizen Service 18
Corporate Dominion 22 (+1)
Fanatic Purifiers 5 (-2)
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 29
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 18
Syncretic Evolution 16

I like FP as much as anyone but sometimes you must just give up you inner sadist and do what will push you forward. Embracing capitalism through Corporate Dominion is the only way forward to the light of MegaCorp!
 

Mastikator

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Agrarian Idyll 8
Citizen Service 18
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 5
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 29
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19 (+1)
Syncretic Evolution 14 (-2)

I think we need to get a step away from fanatical mineralism, it does not eclipse all the other resources to the point of obscurity, it is not a good thing to face the contingency with T4 weapons when you should be deep into repeatables just so that you can get those 15% more percentage points of minerals. Most of the mineral inflation you get is from late game tech and being strategic.
 

Lord Beyer XVII

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Agrarian Idyll 8
Citizen Service 18
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 6(+1)
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 27(-2)
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19
Syncretic Evolution 14

Fanatic Purifier has to live on!
Why spend a civic slot on a 5% upkeep bonus and two early techs? Throw your rotten tomatoes at me, you robot lovers, but I can not understand that.
 

Tyrannical Prince

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Agrarian Idyll 8
Citizen Service 16 (-2)
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 7(+1)
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19
Syncretic Evolution 14

I'm surprised FP is so far down
 

Archon87

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It's not that bad as you can fill out traditions pretty fast and have tons of unity for Ambitions, but requires special approach. You can:

A) spam habitats to the point where they make 40% of the galaxy and you win the game;

B) cheese Worm event to flip the switch to militarism;

C) go for Federation victory: embrace your second ethic to become non-fanatic pacifist, enable liberation wars and go around liberating everyone and pulling them into your Fed;

D) take the slow and influence-expensive path of conversion:
  1. genemod your race to be [very] strong deviants
  2. destroy your Satramene gas mining stations if you have any
  3. embrace your second ethic, so that you become non-fanatic pacifist
  4. have as many rival neighbours as you can
  5. enable Liberation wars and wardec someone
  6. suppress your governing ethics (esp. pacifism)
  7. wait years/decades being in war until enough pops convert to militarism to form a party
  8. promote militarist party until they have 20%
  9. embrace militaristm
  10. bring back Satramene, remove Deviants (can temporarily replace them with conformists) and optionally, run Hearts and Minds ambition if you want to get rid of unhappy pacifists faster.
I feel like if you have to jump through hoops in order to win with it, it deserves to be eliminated from a contest about what's best if you want to win. Especially since all of the remaining civics are much better at helping you win the game and defeat the crisis.
 

Sigma 582

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Agrarian Idyll 8
Citizen Service 18
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 5
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 29
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19 (+1)
Syncretic Evolution 14 (-2)

I think we need to get a step away from fanatical mineralism, it does not eclipse all the other resources to the point of obscurity, it is not a good thing to face the contingency with T4 weapons when you should be deep into repeatables just so that you can get those 15% more percentage points of minerals. Most of the mineral inflation you get is from late game tech and being strategic.
- said he, then upvoted a civic giving minerals and downvoted one of four potentially increasing research speed. o_O

I feel like if you have to jump through hoops in order to win with it, it deserves to be eliminated from a contest about what's best if you want to win. Especially since all of the remaining civics are much better at helping you win the game and defeat the crisis.
While other ways may be long or cheesy (worm), Fed victory is quite a sure bet. Putting puppet governments Liberating your neighbours is way faster than accumulating tons of influence for claims if you don't have Total war.

UPD:
Honestly, I feel weird urge to defend all the civics presented by now. There are no more bad picks left, they all are worthy choices helpful for progressing to victory screen.
For example, Fanatical purifiers paint a big target mark on your forehead but if you play it right you can quickly grow too scary for any individual empire to attack you, and by rotating wars, culling the strongest opponents and leaving buffer zones you can prevent AI from dogpiling on you.
 
Last edited:

metalosse

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Agrarian Idyll 6 (-2)
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 8 (+1)
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19
Syncretic Evolution 14

Agrarian idyll is good, but only if you don't really care about winning. Unity is not a problem for tall play, so I think that idyll is generally overkill.

Fp is good because total war.
 

serpentskirt

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Day Tuesday.
Agrarian Idyll 7 (+1)
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 6 (-2)
Inward Perfection 31
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19
Syncretic Evolution 14

Fp is good, but only if you narrow your victory to senseless bloodshed. Not killing everyone is not a problem for achieving victory, so I think that fp is generally overkill.

Agrarian idyll is good because unity.
 

bloodyglasspuppet

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Agrarian Idyll 7
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 4 (-2)
Inward Perfection 32 (+1)
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19
Syncretic Evolution 14
 

CptMuddles

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Agrarian Idyll 5 (-2)
Citizen Service 16
Corporate Dominion 22
Fanatic Purifiers 5 (+1)
Inward Perfection 32
Mechanist 27
Mining Guilds 42
Parliamentary System 17
Slaver Guilds 19
Syncretic Evolution 14

+Fanatic Purifiers. More, better ships is a big boon, and is arguably better than Citizen Service despite the drawbacks. Which, in multiplayer, don't mean much at all - and in singleplayer, who cares what the AI thinks? You probably weren't going to be forming federations or making vassals out of them anyway (both are liabilities), and as long as you maintain your fleets they'll be too scared to attack you. It's certainly better in a vacuum than..

-Agrarian Idyll. Alone, it's practically worthless - I never build farms on my planets unless I need to, because while the bonus pop growth from excess food is nice it takes far too much of it to become a significant modifier. It's only good when paired with Inward Perfection so that you can exploit those adjacency bonuses from your capital, and that's a big can of worms itself (to say nothing of both requiring fanatic pacifism, seriously preventing your opportunities for expansion and game-winning, even with the bonuses of IP).
 

4o1XOHBV6In4

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So this whole discussion about syncretic evoluation vs slaver guilds has been really interesting to me. And mostly we've been able to work out pretty good ways to compare them, for example we figured out that minerals are even early on but syncretic still has their main race with all their trait points and we can then look at what you can get for that, how big of a deal it is and such.

But the one thing that has been really hard to put into numbers, really hard to compare, is the growth with multiple species. Whenever I played syncretic that part about it felt really bad but that's no good way to evaluate it seriously. So I ran a short experiment to test how much that matters in terms that are more intuitive for me, that are easier to gauge in terms of impact.

So what I did is run two mostly identical empires in the same galaxy, details follow below.

Empire A: Slaver Guilds
Fanatic Authoritarian + Spiritualist
Mineral Guilds + Slaver Guilds
No traits selected
Level 1 governor with no bonus


Empire B: Syncretic Evolution
Fanatic Authoritarian + Spiritualist
Mineral Guilds + Syncretic Evolution
No traits selected
Level 1 governor with no bonus

Testing:
As noted above I just ran the game on fastest speed and wrote down every time a pop grew into a text file. This then allowed me to calculate the total time expended and compare it to the amount of time missed for syncratic due to slower growth. The first pop to grow each went on a fully built farm on a 2 food tile, all subsequent pops went to irrelevant tiles (no food). The test is two phased, with phase 1 from 0 / 0 to 2 / 2 pops on each colony, and phase 2 from 2 / 2 to 4 / 4 on each.

Results:
Phase 1 started 2200.01.01 and ended 2208.01.01 for a total of 8 years.
Out of these 8 years Empire A was ahead a pop for 4 years and 4 months.

Phase 2 started 2208.01.01 and ended 2016.05.01 for a total of 8 years and 4 months.
Out of these 8 years 4 months Empire A was ahead a pop for 4 years 8 months.

The total time simulated was 16 years and 4 months.
The total time Empire A was ahead 1 pop was 9 years exactly.

Conclusion:
The actual slow down on growth speed per 2 pops seems not that significant when starting out with perfect balance at least. In the time span observed the biggest effect by far was the syncretic empire being down a pop for more than half of game time. A rule of thumb and also a lower bound on syncretic disadvantage should be something like: You're missing out on a pop working half of colony age for each colony. So if you have 4 colonies which you founded 40, 30, 20 and 10 years ago, respectively, you'd be down 20+15+10+5 = 50 years worth of one pop's output, growing at +2 years of one pop's output per year.

So it should be somewhat noticeable in the early game but rather irrelevant later, despite scaling with number of colonies. The growth dynamic destabilizes over time (as can be seen with how Empire A is more ahead then it should by phase 2) and there are second order effects like delaying your pop 5 and therefore your shelter upgrades. Unless you resettle. So there are still more downsides to be had. But they're either insignificant or hard to calculate so I'm done for the evening.
 
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Siri

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So what is I ran two mostly identical empires in the same galaxy, details follow below.

That is helpful, thanks. I actually didn't expect it would be more than 50% and suspect it may have had to do with the cutoff time being where it was because unless I am missing something that is how it should be.

How many pops did the planet have in the end in both cases? Mostly wondering for the purposes of estimating a ballpark percentage value for the amount of labour you miss out on.
 

evilcat

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Fanatic Purifiers 3 (-2), everyone has a place in the empire
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4o1XOHBV6In4

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That is helpful, thanks. I actually didn't expect it would be more than 50% and suspect it may have had to do with the cutoff time being where it was because unless I am missing something that is how it should be.

How many pops did the planet have in the end in both cases? Mostly wondering for the purposes of estimating a ballpark percentage value for the amount of labour you miss out on.

So how syncretic grows is that at after the first month a growing pop for both species is created and they both grow perfectly evenly until they hit the target number of new pop creation. For the following let's call the two races the "masters" and the "slaves". What happens then is, to the best of my knowledge and in this order:

1) The slave race is selected for growth (maybe it's random when they tie but for me it's always been slaves)
2) A new slave is instantiated, that is their growing pop is replaced with a fully grown pop
3) The target number for all growing pops in raised in accordance with there being one more pop on the planet.
4) A new growing slave pop is created with 0 progress (if there is space)
5) Growth split is recalculated, in this case the balance of pops switches from 4:4 to 5:4 in favor of slaves.
6) Growth is applied according to the new split. This means the total growth now goes 5/9 towards the newly created slave pop and 4/9 to the mostly grown master pop. Before growth was split evenly.

What this results in is that two pops grown sequentially are actually faster than two pops grown in parallel, because once the slave finishes growing it reduces the growth of the master until the split is 50:50 again. This effect is relatively minor if you start out with 8 pops and perfect balance right away, but consider a planet with just one pop of each race. First they grow equally, then one instantiates and growth split changes from 50:50 to 67:33 until the second is finished growing. Granted, the target number also doesn't rise as much with going from 2 to 3 compared from 8 to 9.

There's also to consider that master-slave planets are behind (compared to sequential) until both races have grown at least one pop. This means if you start of with something like an 7:1 split then you're basically down some ~12% growth speed until the planet is full, because that's about as long as the single race will require to grow it's pop. So going out of balance is hard to avoid and actively bad.

So that is why being behind 50% of a pop is a lower bound to syncretic evolution. Two races perfectly balanced is the best case scenario for multispecies empires. Having 3 or 4 biological races growing on a planet at the same time stunts growth even worse for much of the same reasons, I don't remember the exact results but I once measured how long it would take if you started with 1 pop of 4 species and waiting until each species grew at least once. I do remember that it was significatly worse than sequential growth. That last pop just takes forever, starting out with 1/4 and slowly going down to 1/5, 1/6 and eventually 1/7 of the total growth available.

TL;DR: I'm glad we're getting a new growth system that hopefully allows for migration pacts and multicultural empires without impacting growth speed.
 
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