1944 carrier in 1941

[AlfredMV]

Japan is not used for the stream, its UK and Germany.

Due to all the information gathered, all previous evidence including statements from podcat and eu4, I'm 95% certain it is additive, and my previous statements are correct. Hopefully a developer responds to this thread. And just looking at the math, what I've said makes more sense. Do you really think they'll let you research 6 years ahead of time by switching trade policy faster than 4 years? ?? Podcat has said additive, nothing in the stream says otherwise that I could find. Perhaps japan's national focus is special and multiplicative but I do know the rest is additive.

 

[AlfredMV]

Japan is not used for the stream, its UK and Germany.

7 mins into the wednesday stream part 2 Johan hold mouse over concentrated industry IV which is 4 years ahead and the penalty is 612.4%.

At 8:30 Johan hold over Princess Royal class (3 years ahead) and it have 510% penalty.

In both cases Johan have 25% research cost reduction.

The cost could depend on that the each new year or even month the ahead penalty is reduced which the game take in account.

Germany go with computing machine, one year ahead and at 180% penalty with 10% tech cost reduction.

I will take a long look in the morning but now it is late. But 75% of 800 is 600 so why would it be 612.4% ? Also, if it applied the base time wouldn't be even faster? I'll look in the morning tho.

 

[Denkt]

The computer machine is a good as I know that they base cost is 250 days. He started it in July 1937 so about 170 days left of the year.

With 200% penalty each day is only counted for 1/3 of a real research day so we have 194 days left after end of year. Remove 25 days because of 10% tech cost reduction

(194+170-25)/250 = 1.556

 

[The Requimen]

Isn't it better to rush actual plane tech than carriers?
If advanced planes couldn't use outdated carriers due to deck requirements (historical!) that'd be a whole different story.

Simple Lanchester's Law. So, 30 advanced aircraft vs 90 less advanced aircraft. (We don't know how many aircraft a '44 carrier can have, but it is likely ~90.)
The 30 advanced aircraft will need to be more than "9!" times more effective per unit than the lesser aircraft to overcome the numerical advantage.

Having said that, I would rather better carriers and aircraft vs really advanced aircraft or carriers.

 

[GsusNSV]

I have a feeling a variant '40 is better than a vanilla '44

Only the fully upgraded '40 will be. If the '44 is upgraded once it should be better, according to Podcat.

 

[The Requimen]

I have a feeling a variant '40 is better than a vanilla '44

Podcat quote, "yeah there are limits. deck size has 5 upgrade levels only". Johan said, "yep" to this guys question, "I assume that the Deck space will increase more by new ship design than by increasing the deck space on the model you already have?"

We don't know how many aircraft each upgrade gives you, but we do know it won't be much in comparison to a new ship type.

 

[Denkt]

Only the fully upgraded '40 will be. If the '44 is upgraded once it should be better, according to Podcat.

But you will never have a non uppgraded 44 tech carrier because you should have naval experience by the time you reach that tech.

 

[HerrderGezeiten]

@The Requimen 3 times? 30 vs 90

 

[Secret Master]

@Denkt

Well, since you have crunched the numbers and paid closer attention to the stream than I did, answer me this question (if you can).

Do higher tech aircraft take up more space on a carrier? Do carriers need more capacity at later techs so they can mount higher tech aircraft?

I'm asking because in HOI3, crappy carriers could still mount 2 CAGs with jet engines, air to surface missiles, drop tanks, and radio guided bombs without any problem. So, crappy carriers could punch at full strength with high tech aircraft (when historically, older carriers had problems with new aircraft.)

 

[The Requimen]

@The Requimen 3 times? 30 vs 90

If you are trying to say that the 30 advanced aircraft only need to be 3 times more effective to beat the 90 less advanced ones, the math simply doesn't add up.

Let us say that the 30 advanced aircraft can effectively kill 0.9 enemy aircraft per unit per turn. 30*0.9=27 enemy aircraft killed in turn one.

The 90 less advanced ones are only 1/3 as effective as the advanced ones, so about 0.3 enemy aircraft per unit per turn. 90*0.3=27 enemy aircraft killed in turn one.

Leaving around 3 vs 63 for turn two. A foregone conclusion at this point.
You would need around 52 vs 90 just to break even. (mutual annihilation)

 

[mursolini]

If you are trying to say that the 30 advanced aircraft only need to be 3 times more effective to beat the 90 less advanced ones, the math simply doesn't add up.

Let us say that the 30 advanced aircraft can effectively kill 0.9 enemy aircraft per unit per turn. 30*0.9=27 enemy aircraft killed in turn one.

The 90 less advanced ones are only 1/3 as effective as the advanced ones, so about 0.3 enemy aircraft per unit per turn. 90*0.3=27 enemy aircraft killed in turn one.

Leaving around 3 vs 63 for turn two. A foregone conclusion at this point.
You would need around 52 vs 90 just to break even. (mutual annihilation)

depends on how stacking penalty works

Afaik, from air DD, it is impossible to outnumber by a large margin, 2 being most, AFAIK.

 

[AlfredMV]

The computer machine is a good as I know that they base cost is 250 days. He started it in July 1937 so about 170 days left of the year.

With 200% penalty each day is only counted for 1/3 of a real research day so we have 194 days left after end of year. Remove 25 days because of 10% tech cost reduction

(194+170-25)/250 = 1.556

Upon inspection I belive my initial statements to be true.
At 6:49 you can see the 1940 battle cruiser has a 510% research penalty on July 10 1937. 3 years is 600%, but it goes by month, so it would be 2 years 5 months early, 29 months early. Taking the penalty as 16.67% per month, the penalty should be 483%. The per month in game calculation must be rounded in some way then. So however it is it seems to not be multiplicative, especially if it's true that Johan has a 25% research bonus like you say.
Now to your other statement on the computing machine. At 8:34 you can see the 1938 computing machine has a 180% research penalty on July 31 1937. It would seem to be only a 4 month ahead of time penalty so it should be 80%, but it's much higher. I can only conclude from both of the above that the tech year doesn't start exactly at the beginning of the year and may be different for each tech. I also believe it must round to the nearest 10% or 5% because I haven't seen anything not be by the 10% except the research bonuses.
We'll find out eventually but it appears to be additive and the ahead of time is based on a month not the first of the year.

Jan 25 1938 there are 44 days left on the computing machine and an 80% research bonus on it. If it was multiplicative that would mean without the bonus there would be 220 days left, nearing the end of the year, which I don't believe is how it works.

 

[Denkt]

It say the computer machine will take 450 days to research from a base cost of 250 days. 250*0.8 = 200 so 1.8*250=450

The game say +180% penalty but he really only have a 80% penalty, it is just a poor math choice to have the + in the text.

+80% is correct or it could say cost is 180% of base cost.

That mean the research peanlty is maybe "only" half as much or it could be that he started on month number 7 as you said.

Next day at 10:19 we see the month change and a huge drop in research time for the computer machine from 447 to 409 days.

If it was just a normal day research time would be 446 so 446 - 409 = 37 days and 37/250 = 0.148 or 14.8%.

Next time I see Germany's research is at 14:43 which is September 22, 53 days after last time. Computer machine have now 319 days left. 409 - 319 = 90 and 37+53 = 90 so the ahead penalty drop linear.

Now I try to backtrack. We know that each month ahead add 37 days so 250+37*6 =472 (I guess there is some rounding that cost us a few days as if I had to say the each month add 15% cost)
Then we remove 250*0.9 = 25 days (Germany have 10% research cost reduction) and 472-25 = 447 days, very very close to what we had.

So the true ahead penalty seems to be 12*15% = 180% per year and the research cost modifiers seems to be adjective.

However we should not forget the secret weapon which have not really gotten any showlight and that is the 100% ahead in time penalty reduction which can be gotten by some national focuses. At 39:19 we see it in action.

Panzer III is 7 months ahead in time: 7*15% = 105%, what we see is that it will take 77 days (-61.50%) which seems like a bug because then he press on the tank it say 154 days (he got 23% research cost reduction).

We know the base cost of Pz III is 77/(1-61.5%) = 200 days and 200*0.23 = 46 days. 200 - 46 = 154 days, the ahead penalty is completely gone.

This is for a 7 month ahead in time research, do the 100% ahead in time penalty remove all ahead penalty or only some of it, that is still unknown for me.

 

[Midden]

Interesting discussions, how about this:

The best item most effective item to tech rush ... would be ... Aircraft Fighters and related Doctrine:
When they said air combat is atmost 1 v 1 max 2 v 1 when out numbered. This means in this combat you can't be zerged by numbers of low tech... which you can in all the other HOi iv types of combat, land and sea combats. Which is really cool and matches history, when you have same quality pilots higher tech fighters wipe the floor with the opponent ... been consistent through history since WWi (when the Eindecker was first introduced on the western front).

In my view if you are going to tech rush anything in Hoi iv it should be fighters 1st.

Denks Carrier platform rushing may also work because if it looks like Japans production efficiency will be low so if it is producing later model high deck space models, he will be able to bring more planes to the fight, than he was producing the same number of earlier models... but I suggest he doesn't ignore his fighter aircraft.

 

[Oakfan]

Seriously, tech rushing has been part of EVERY HOI game. Hell every game that has a tech tree needing research to progress.

Let take a chill pill and see how/if it's possible. If it's game breaking, we can crunch the research number and post our results.

 

[Denkt]

The game have some national focuses that give 100% ahead penalty reduction but if these remove all or some ahead penalty is unknown to me.