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cegorach

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Perhaps shocking to me only, but probably not.

I thought I will post it here. My source is very detailed and has very positive reviews.
Majewski is a respected younger historian specialising in CZE military and foreing policy, he is in charge of the Museum of the 2nd WW which will be built in Gdańsk to 2012-15.




The data compares 1939 POL with 1938 CZE





POL Infantry division

16 500 men, 27 AT, 4 AA, 132 HvMG, 20 mortars, 81 granade launchers, 92 AT rifles, 48 cannons and howitzers,

CZE Infantry division

13 500 men, 18 AT, 0 AA, 54 HvMG, 18 mortars, 0 granade launchers, 0 AT rifles, 30 cannons and howitzers,


Some divisions on both sides were supported by addititonal forces, but those numbers are for the avarage, active infantry divisions.





General
--------------
--------------

POL - c. 1,3 million men including a small number of Germans - others remained loyal,

CZE - c. 1,1 million men including hostile German and Hungarian conscripts (for example numerous drivers) - others remained loyal,


POL - 60 divisions and brigades, including 30 active infantry divisions, 11 cavalry and 2 mechanized brigades

CZE - 41 divisions and brigades, including 21 active infantry divisions, 4 fast/mobile divisions,



artillery
---------

CZE - 780 AT in infantry + c. 230 in fortifications

POL - 1300+ AT guns


CZE - 216 AA - 60 modern (56 80mm and 4 75mm) + 49 AA machine guns companies,

POL - 370 AA - 250 modern + 95 AA machine guns companies,


CZE - 2900 cannons and howitzers,

POL - 3300 cannons and howitzers,


tanks
------

CZE - 350 + 50 in reserve (tankettes) and more in production,

POL - 800+ older, mostly recon tankettes + some reserves and in production,


Overall CZE are better armed here with better tanks (armoured cars are not included),


motorization
------------

CZE - 4 fast divisions

motorized-horse/cyclist hybrid divisions with some tanks - each division was different, there was no unified doctrine how to use them, pnly the 4th can be counted as light armored with almost 100 tanks at their disposal,

+ one more than partially motorized infantry division (14th) which however was de-motorized during the mobilization in 1938 sending many vehicles to support AT companies for infantry,

15 % of artillery is motorized, all infantry divisions can be considered partially motorized (process however disrupted by a shortage of drivers - many of them Sudetenland Germans),


POL - 2 fully mechanized brigades, 11 cavalry brigades

a small part of artillery is motorized (all AA cannons, some AT, a small number of army artillery units), all divisionary and army engineer units are motorized,


Aircrafts
---------

POL - 400 first line, 890 with reserves, c.1800-2000 overall including trainers and civilian

CZE - 568 first line, 801 with reserves, 1514 overall including trainers and civilian


Poles had more modern bombers, 30% of CZE pilots were not available, their airforce was more decentralised (no general reserve force such as POL pursuit and bomber brigades), CZE had more of more modern fighters,




Sources:

mainly from -


Piotr Majewski "Nierozegrana kampania, Możliwości obronne Czechosłowacji jesienią 1938 roku", TRIO , Warszawa 2004, ISBN 83-88542-83-4.


based on documents from Prague Military Archieve and these Czech works:


Karlický V. "Československé dělostřelecké zbraně. Naše vojsko", Praha 1975.
oraz
Ráboň M., Svoboda T. "Československá zeď", Brno 1993





The comparison is simply stunning - I never expected something like this, I mean I knew about relative weakness of CZE air defence, but this...
Of course CZE was almost two times smaller and could call for even more larger reserves in equipment, but there would be a problem with manpower, plus those numbers are for equipment avaiable to the military - anything more would have to be delivered first which takes time.


I am not sure how CZE communication equipment was like - how many radiostations they were using, but that is unlikely to change much.

One important factor in CZE favour are the fortifications on their border territories, the problem is there were large areas where the protective belt wasn't built or was full of numerous holes and its details were well known to the German side.

Considering small size of Czechoslovakia, its weak air defences and large numbers of hostile minorities the conclusion is CZE couldn't dream of stopping GER attack without serious support. It was doomed to fail very quickly.
 

unmerged(99323)

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those are very interesting numbers. thank you for posting them.


But I would think we would need to consider the forces of those countries to the force of Germany at those two different times. They were growing very rapidly at that time so it's possible that even a year less would make them a lot less powerful. (especially since they didn't have czech tanks :p )

Also the vast systems of fortifications would surely play a part in an eventual war (even though I know it wasn't perfect)
 

The Andy-Man

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1938 German OOB

This site seems to show the German army size of the time, though I don't know how acurate it is.

*Warning, the German flag used is a Swastika, and I know that might cause a problem, so I am leaving a warning until a mod decides whether a history/althistory website can be linked to*
 

unmerged(75409)

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The Czechs seem to have been very deficient in heavy weapons. I thought they had a thriving arms industry?

Also quite disappointing that they would barely be able to field 2/3 of the Polish army... and then on top of that, not have their drivers show up for mobilization :eek:o
 
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Considering small size of Czechoslovakia, its weak air defences and large numbers of hostile minorities the conclusion is CZE couldn't dream of stopping GER attack without serious support. It was doomed to fail very quickly.

Perhaps that is what they realized too.

I am not exactly sure what you are shocked about. I am a little more shocked by the fact that Poland had an army about just as weak, faced a considerably stronger Germany semi-allied to the Soviet Union, and thought "yeah, we might take Berlin in this war, let's go!".
 

cegorach

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Perhaps that is what they realized too.

I am not exactly sure what you are shocked about. I am a little more shocked by the fact that Poland had an army about just as weak, faced a considerably stronger Germany semi-allied to the Soviet Union, and thought "yeah, we might take Berlin in this war, let's go!".

About half of what you wrote is untrue and off-topic.

It is pointless to discuss anything with you - it seems pretty obvious.
 

cegorach

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The Czechs seem to have been very deficient in heavy weapons. I thought they had a thriving arms industry?

They had and that is the point of my post. It seems that they exported most of their modern heavy weaponry.
Probably their military budget was too small or made some politically inspired mistakes.

Also quite disappointing that they would barely be able to field 2/3 of the Polish army... and then on top of that, not have their drivers show up for mobilization :eek:o

It is worse - their army was comparable in manpower, but lacking equipment.
I didn't expect something like this.
 

unmerged(136398)

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I am not exactly sure what you are shocked about. I am a little more shocked by the fact that Poland had an army about just as weak, faced a considerably stronger Germany semi-allied to the Soviet Union, and thought "yeah, we might take Berlin in this war, let's go!".

They were Allied to France and Great Britain after all, two great powers, so they probably hoped for a large-scale Western Allied invasion --which never came-- on Germany's western front.

Also, I doubt Stalin would have occupied the eastern part of Poland unless the Polish had been losing for sure. Not that I think the Polish would have made it, even if the Western Allies had launched an invasion, given Germany's Blitzkrieg. But this was the first time it was tested in practice, so it is not so strange that Poland thought they had a shot at winning. Then propaganda probably played in too. You don't tell your soldiers that you might lose after all; they don't want to hear that.
 

unmerged(24857)

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They had and that is the point of my post. It seems that they exported most of their modern heavy weaponry.
Probably their military budget was too small or made some politically inspired mistakes.
This. Actually you were right on all three guesses.

The export numbers were high.
The military budget OTOH was quite small. (ok, I am not exactly sure on this, and building of the fortifications probably cost a lot).
Politics, corruption and protectionsim were huge factor in choosing equipment. This mostly affects the type and not the numbers, but still..
 

cegorach

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This. Actually you were right on all three guesses.

The export numbers were high.
The military budget OTOH was quite small. (ok, I am not exactly sure on this, and building of the fortifications probably cost a lot).
Politics, corruption and protectionsim were huge factor in choosing equipment. This mostly affects the type and not the numbers, but still..

Nice to know.

Do you know how large part was available to rearm the land forces? Half of the military budget? 30%? Less?

I know many excellent types of CZE weaponry - including much necessary AA cannons - but they appeared only in small numbers.


I can only compare it to the precarious situation in Poland - the military pretty much spent every penny they had or even had not (off-budgetary funds for example from public donations and selling very large quantities mostly older weponry to Republican Spain), yet all they coud hope was that the war wil be started no earlier than in later 1940.

Of course I guess more could be spared for this purpose in both cases of POL and CZE, but not everyone can gamble with the economy (the Third Reich) or employ massive slave labour (Soviets).
 

unmerged(6881)

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Hello there,

Well, if there is anyhing shocking in these numbers is a relative strength of Czech army in comparison to Polish one.

It might be worth to mention that Poland spent 44% of its GDP on military in first 9 months of 1939. A staggering number, not recoded since then (North Korea might be spending similar percentage nowadays but it cannot be verified).

Czechoslovakia was much smaller and less populated country and felt quite secure being guaranteed by France and (indirectly) by the USSR. Germany was not hostile until the last moment and Czechs had no reason to increase their military budget.

Their border fortifications combined with artillery and tanks better than anything that Germans could field at that time, where more than enough to keep minor German army in check (the main bulk of it was supposed to guard Rhine against French).

Last but not least, it was a defensive army, never expected to put a foot outside the border. Defensive army doesn't require all these tanks, aircraft and cannon fodder as it is not supposed to break through any lines.

Then Munich happened and psychological blow it delivered was shattering.

There were some speculations whether Germans could really break into Czech mainland even when fighting Czechoslovakia alone and it looks like it is not so obvious.

German army was on accelerated growth since mid 1936 and the differences in numbers, armament and training between 1938 and 1939 are very serious.

They had much better chance against Poland in 1939 than against Czechoslovakia a year earlier. And they still could be stalemated in Poland had Polish top military commanders were of any acceptable quality.

Vv
 

cegorach

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Hello there

No offence, but I'd rather stick to people knowing something about the subject.

Your post as valuable as it is, hardly adds anything useful, but thanks for posting.
 

unmerged(6881)

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No offence, but I'd rather stick to people knowing something about the subject.

Your post as valuable as it is, hardly adds anything useful, but thanks for posting.

Hello there,

Actually, your post is quite offensive and I'm sure it meant to be like that.

Do not worry - I will not trouble your thread anymore, however it might be useful to you to visit dws forums (which are in Polish, I believe) to check your views with people who may actually care enough to start citing sources and dwell on topic.

Vv
 

Veldmaarschalk

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About half of what you wrote is untrue and off-topic.

It is pointless to discuss anything with you - it seems pretty obvious.


No offence, but I'd rather stick to people knowing something about the subject.

Your post as valuable as it is, hardly adds anything useful, but thanks for posting.


Both posts you are referring to were on topic and informative. If you think that what they say is incorrect then proof that through sources. Don't make borderline insults. That is not the way we communicate on this forum !
 

cegorach

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Hello there,

Actually, your post is quite offensive and I'm sure it meant to be like that.

Do not worry - I will not trouble your thread anymore, however it might be useful to you to visit dws forums (which are in Polish, I believe) to check your views with people who may actually care enough to start citing sources and dwell on topic.

Vv

Thankfully I have most of my information from the dws and other similar forums. No need to guide me there.
 

cegorach

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Found Czechoslovak military budget for that period.

Apparently it was around

IN years 1934-38 it was 24 bilion korun - 40 % for fortifications if the money really came from the source. Were there any other sources?

Public donations, independent funds dedicated for something in specific (such as building forts in a certain area) or anything else to consider?



I am asking because I've finished mobilisation events for the CZE army in my pack and frankly I cannot afford enough.

I am not sure how much of this was because funds were wasted and how much was really possible to achieve.

BTW I counted only the 4th rychla division as an armored brigade (the rest as cavalry with light tanks), but it is not available from the beginning so has to be built. Very difficult at the moment.


If there were any non-budgetary funds which could be used I'd be happy to add them, but now I am still not certain how to deal with it.
 
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