1936 Nationalist China on hard is brutal - any tips?

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Although you can game the system with shenangians like use the time gap between the US declaring war on Germany but before they join the allies, and ally with the US first, then immediately declare war on the UK to prevent them joining the Allies. I couldn't do that in my game though because I can't declare war on the UK yet due to me being a democracy and them having low belligerence, but I think that can work in the right setup.
 
well....I do have an idea that you didnt mention....first i never play china with those setts...33 start better and the hard/aggressive setting makes the ai leave real provinces unguarded....one of things you could have done...and i never played china using the 1.5 patch.(long time no china play)...is use the in supply upgrade option. ON first day of game switch the upgrade path of you militia to infantry....build more militia and have them upgrade to infantry ...as well have some infantry upgrade to cavalry for overruns.....dont put any IC to upgrades....just se the in supply/upgrade feature....depending on tc load....they should take 6 months to upgrade to infantry....9-12 for cavalry....also you can later when you have tech upgrade the infantry to motor infantry....even upgrade your cavalry to tank...
 
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well....I do have an idea that you didnt mention....first i never play china with those setts...33 start better and the hard/aggressive setting makes the ai leave real provinces unguarded....one of things you could have done...and i never played china using the 1.5 patch.(long time no china play)...is use the in supply upgrade option. ON first day of game switch the upgrade path of you militia to infantry....build more militia and have them upgrade to infantry ...as well have some infantry upgrade to cavalry for overruns.....dont put any IC to upgrades....just se the in supply/upgrade feature....depending on tc load....they should take 6 months to upgrade to infantry....9-12 for cavalry....also you can later when you have tech upgrade the infantry to motor infantry....even upgrade your cavalry to tank...
That's kind of what I did, I went in thru the back door behind the front-lines and their back was completely undefended. Trying to get in thru the back door was still non-trivial though, took me until 1942 before I could do it. I do have to say the 1936 scenario is much harder than 1933.

Hmm I did notice that my units do upgrade eventually even with no IC to reinforcement and upgrades, I guess that's the mechanic. That still can take a long time if the upgrade requires a lot of IC*days no? What I did was mass upgrades to 1926 infantry once I researched 1936 infantry, which was cheap and quick due to it being 2 gen old, and that was also the last gen that doesn't use oil, and then left it on supply-upgrade afterwards. I didn't do cross-unit upgrades since it looks like that takes too much IC*days. For most of the game I had little spare ICs, during the war all I could do was have a few militia building, and the rest were all reinforcements, and I could barely kept up with the grinding from Japan.
 
Hmm I did notice that my units do upgrade eventually even with no IC to reinforcement and upgrades, I guess that's the mechanic. That still can take a long time if the upgrade requires a lot of IC*days no?

Code:
[..\Darkest Hour\Mods\Darkest Hour Full\db\misc.txt]

# Added extra upgrade progress to units in supply. Added daily progress to all units in supply that can upgrade is equal to Cur_STR/(Max_STR * THIS). Added value is not affected by any other upgrade modifiers. Set to 0 to disable this functionality.
    720 #0
# Reinforce to upgrade modifier. Values from 0.0 (divisions do not get extra upgrade progress on reinforcement) to 1.0 (1:1 ratio, 1% reinforce adds 1% to upgrade progress)
    0.5 # 0.0

"Passive" upgrade needs 2 years (regardless of type and unit).
And each 1% repaired damage adds another 0.5% to upgrades. So for airplanes or front units it might happen rather fast.
Condition: Unit needs to be in supply.

First time I discovered passive upgrades I changed my whole National China army into an all elite mountain unit army (but I did it not for the fighting stats but because mountain units need less supply than regular infantry).
 
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Code:
[..\Darkest Hour\Mods\Darkest Hour Full\db\misc.txt]

# Added extra upgrade progress to units in supply. Added daily progress to all units in supply that can upgrade is equal to Cur_STR/(Max_STR * THIS). Added value is not affected by any other upgrade modifiers. Set to 0 to disable this functionality.
    720 #0
# Reinforce to upgrade modifier. Values from 0.0 (divisions do not get extra upgrade progress on reinforcement) to 1.0 (1:1 ratio, 1% reinforce adds 1% to upgrade progress)
    0.5 # 0.0

"Passive" upgrade needs 2 years (regardless of type and unit).
And each 1% repaired damage adds another 0.5% to upgrades. So for airplanes or front units it might happen rather fast.
Condition: Unit needs to be in supply.

First time I discovered passive upgrades I changed my whole National China army into an all elite mountain unit army (but I did it not for the fighting stats but because mountain units need less supply than regular infantry).
Interesting, that's what I was seeing. And looks like this passive upgrade isn't dependent on IC*days cost? So using it to do a very expensive upgrade to another type of unit would save you a lot of ICs? ie build a cheap unit and then passive upgrade to an expensive one.

And also it would mean leaving the last upgrade generation to be done passively would be most efficient.

I knew about the reinforce upgrade one, it really helped since my units were hammered hard constantly earlier and i had to constantly reinforce, the upgrade was a nice bonus.

Hmm that's a good idea. If I knew about this earlier, I would seriously consider passive upgrading everything to mountain units too. There seems to be no downsides to this. Alas it's too late now, by the time I'm done this my game would be almost finished.
 
If I knew about this earlier, I would seriously consider passive upgrading everything to mountain units too. There seems to be no downsides to this.

As a matter of fact there are downsides: Repair/reinforcements and active upgradings are substantially more expensive for mountain units which outweights by far the small savings in supply.
But I didn't complain. I really liked my Chinese Mountain Army. While regular infantry was a small special branch reserved to operate heavy artillery together with engineer units to kick the Japanese out of Shanghai. Only regular infantry is capable to have 2 brigades.

And looks like this passive upgrade isn't dependent on IC*days cost?

Nope, fixed to 720 days regardless of cost and time. Which means utterly wasted to upgrade a 1890 infantry unit but completly overpowered when you upgrade the same unit instead to MOT (what you can really do).

In general passive upgrading is a great feature. Unfortunately a bit overpowered and unbalanced due to the cross-upgrading ability.
 
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As a matter of fact there are downsides: Repair/reinforcements and active upgradings are substantially more expensive for mountain units which outweights by far the small savings in supply.
But I didn't complain. I really liked my Chinese Mountain Army. While regular infantry was a small special branch reserved to operate heavy artillery together with engineer units to kick the Japanese out of Shanghai. Only regular infantry is capable to have 2 brigades.



Nope, fixed to 720 days regardless of cost and time. Which means utterly wasted to upgrade a 1890 infantry unit but completly overpowered when you upgrade the same unit instead to MOT (what you can really do).

In general passive upgrading is a great feature. Unfortunately a bit overpowered and unbalanced due to the cross-upgrading ability.
True, especially at the start when you haven't researched deep into the mountain infantry path yet. And true the higher reinforce costs will hurt, when I was taking heavy casualties and had limited ICs. But it's great later on though. I wish I knew about this mechanic earlier. Thanks @deadmanhope for pointing it out.
 
On another note, my original game basically ended, since there's nothing much I could do except start unwinnable wars. So I loaded a save and messed around with it, and made it such that the Soviets and Germans got into a stalemate on the Eastern Front by giving the Soviets a big nerf. Then 1.5 years later in 1944, when my sliders finally allow me to declare war on the Soviets, and when the US declared war on Germany and joined the Allies, I joined the Allies too and declared on the Soviets, starting a massive 3-way war. I'm going to bring democracy to both the Nazis and communists by force. And things got very interesting.

The Soviets were starting to win again against the Germans, but my massive invasion of Central Asia, Mongolia, and Manchuria diverted a lot of their troops to my front. Then I noticed the Soviets completely ran out of oil within a couple months, turns out they were importing massive amounts of oil from the US, and my making the Allies declare on them deprived them of it. Because of this, the Germans starts to push the Soviets back and finally advance past the Polish border.

But the Germans also have a huge problem, they also completely ran out of oil, and on top of that ran out of manpower. And my allies have finally initiated the Western Front. Instead of a US spearheaded Normandy, it was a UK spearheaded Cadiz via Gibraltar, possible because Germany annexed both Spain and France. The US also landed in Galicia as well. They are overrunning Spain, and it's a matter of time before they push into France.

I'm currently bogged down by the Soviets in Manchuria because they strategically redeployed a lot more troops than I expected. I'm advancing in Central Asia and Siberia, but geography is my enemy, it takes ages to advance for my infantry, my MOTs are great but I only have a small number of them. Both the Soviets and Germans are technically stronger than us at the moment still, but the bulk of their troops are fighting each other and they're exhausted, so it will depend on who will collapse first.
 
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"Passive" upgrade needs 2 years (regardless of type and unit).
So apparently this isn't the case when you're demobilized. Passive supply upgrade apparently depends on the current strength of the unit, and since when you demobilize you change to 1/3 the strength for all land units, it takes 3x the time to upgrade, ie 6 years.

I didn't realize this and this messed up my plans to fight the Soviets at their full strength in WW3, as 2 years later when the war starts, my units were only 1/3 of the way in upgrades. I was depending on it to fully modernize my entire army, when it's done I would be about 10% Motorized, 10% Mechanized, 20% Mountain, 20% Marines, and 40% Infantry. Instead I'm still at 50% Infantry and 45% Militia and a small number of MOT, this is going to be a tough fight. Still, I think this mechanic is what makes taking on much stronger foes possible when you have a few years to prepare. Also the militia spam strategy works even better because of this, since you can convert them all to infantry and cavalry later.
 
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["Passive" upgrade needs 2 years (regardless of type and unit). ]

So apparently this isn't the case when you're demobilized. Passive supply upgrade apparently depends on the current strength of the unit, and since when you demobilize you change to 1/3 the strength for all land units, it takes 3x the time to upgrade, ie 6 years.

Interesting and a bit weird. I could imagine that this isn't even behaving as intended.
I have never really measured the time it takes, instead relied on the approbiate line in misc.txt and the added condition always stated "if in full supply".

Out of curiousity: What happens the moment you mobilize in terms of upgrades?
I am not that familiar with the mobilizing system and try to keep the mobilization level as low as possible, so I often rely on reinforcing instead of mobilizing.

Also the militia spam strategy works even better because of this, since you can convert them all to infantry and cavalry later
Yeah, unfortunately. Somehow breaks the whole system. Which is why I suggested the hot fix to allow passive upgrade ONLY within the same unit type.
 
Interesting and a bit weird. I could imagine that this isn't even behaving as intended.
I have never really measured the time it takes, instead relied on the approbiate line in misc.txt and the added condition always stated "if in full supply".

Out of curiousity: What happens the moment you mobilize in terms of upgrades?
I am not that familiar with the mobilizing system and try to keep the mobilization level as low as possible, so I often rely on reinforcing instead of mobilizing.


Yeah, unfortunately. Somehow breaks the whole system. Which is why I suggested the hot fix to allow passive upgrade ONLY within the same unit type.
Apparently it is intended, because the param in misc.txt specifically mentions the formula with current strength being used in the calculation. I don't know what's the reasoning though, I would think an under-strength unit would be easier to upgrade, but it's the other way around.

When you mobilize, it doesn't change the upgrade progress, I think because the event sets the strength of your units directly, it doesn't count as reinforcement. Mobilizing is needed because it'll take a lot of ICs and time to reinforce all your units back to full strength, and to get your manpower up. I considered not demobilizing after the war with Japan, but demobilizing drastically reduce the ICs needed to produce supplies during peace years. I'm not sure how the math works out, whether the ICs you save from supplies production offset the ICs needed for upgrades. I guess it'll depend on what you're upgrading to. Not demobilizing also have a research hit though.
 
So apparently this isn't the case when you're demobilized. Passive supply upgrade apparently depends on the current strength of the unit, and since when you demobilize you change to 1/3 the strength for all land units, it takes 3x the time to upgrade, ie 6 years.

Well, I've looked into it a bit closer and found the, to be honest, obvious reason:
The usual disclaimer for passive upgrades given is "when in full supply". The correct disclaimer should be
Passive upgrades take 2 years for units at full strength and in full supply.

As is stated in the line description of misc.txt for passive upgrades:
Code:
Added daily progress to all units in supply that can upgrade is equal to Cur_STR/(Max_STR * THIS)
720
So, at 1/3 strength this would read as
daily_upgrade = 0.33 / 720 = number with many zeros behind the dot meaning full upgrade after 2181 days, roughly 6 years.

So it is only indirectly connected with demobilization. But even at full mobilization, if a unit would be kept at only 1/3 strength it would also take 6 years to upgrade.

[edit: Sorry, overlapping posts. You stated already the correct reason in above post.]
 
I considered not demobilizing
*grin
Just realized that in all my DH-games I haven't, not a single time, demobilized... an ugly warmonger I am.

Oh wait, that's not right. I did it once and was so shocked about my units loosing all that strength that I immediatly reloaded the save before.

Btw: Have you figured out how many supplies you actually need to allow all your units to get to 100% strength with the mobilization and "call in the reserves"-event? I must admit I just don't understand the given formula or fail to apply it properly. And often enough my units get to only 80% strength (another reason I often shy away from that option).

Btw2: Sorry for my incomplete passive upgrade disclaimer to misled you.
 
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*grin
Just realized that in all my DH-games I haven't, not a single time, demobilized... an ugly warmonger I am.

Oh wait, that's not right. I did it once and was so shocked about my units loosing all that strength that I immediatly reloaded the save before.

Btw: Have you figured out how many supplies you actually need to allow all your units to get to 100% strength with the mobilization and "call in the reserves"-event? I must admit I just don't understand the given formula or fail to apply it properly. And often enough my units get to only 80% strength (another reason I often shy away from that option).

Btw2: Sorry for my incomplete passive upgrade disclaimer to misled you.
Lol I'm the same, it's a wargame after all. I wanted to try the challenge of beating down the Soviets at their strongest after they crushed the Germans, but as China and being so far behind, I needed the 2 years to catch up on research and take advantage of the supply upgrade to modernize my army. Peace was just so I can prepare for the next war.

Hmm I only use partial mobilization, that raises my strength to 100 immediately and that costs no supplies. Never tried the call in the reserves event, I probably don't need it as China. Now that I think about it, if I demobilize to 33% strength, and then reinforce all my units, that also contributes to upgrade progress, I wonder if that's cheaper in ICs.

And no worries, part of the fun is figuring out these mechanics, I wouldn't even know about passive upgrade if not for this discussion.
 
HIO....i going thow in my 2 cents on this issue. THE 720 is only the base starting figure. THE time to upgrade has many other factors including MINISTER build bonus...doctrine bonus ..time to build a unit of the class you want to upgrade to (( which is of course effected by the mobilization level you are at)). IT ALWAYS SEEMS TC LOAD AND CLOSENESS TO capital effect time to upgrade (at least to me...sorry for thee caps) . ALso a factor is how up to date the unit you trying to cross upgrade is...an older 1921 infantry unit will take longer to upgrade than a 1936 to a 1935 motor infantry unit. Futhermore reinforcement can play a role...as reinforcing a unit will shorten its upgrade time. Personally i HATE the mobilization system and always rush to partial mobilization level as soon as possible. I sure there are many other factors that i missed so take anything i said with a grain of salt.
 
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I am going to make a confussion on my se ro the in supply cross unit upgrade. PLEASE DONT LAUGHT. With germany as soon as possible i start a run of 2x10 militia....THESE ARE THE luftwaffen divisions which i up grade to infantry divisions. BY the fall of 1939 (starting build and upgrade mid 1933) these units are upgrade and guarding the west wall....later moved to beach defence.....I DO this just because they are named luftwaffen feld divisions....OH....germany starting infantry units get upgrade to motorized inf.....usually before the austria events in 1938.
 
WITH england....its worse....all the light cruisers with C starting in their name are sent to port at start of game and are upgrade to escort carriers.....all the level 1...level 2 heavy cruisers become light carriers. WHY...just because....BUT it means england has a larger anti-sub force by 1941 and some carriers (althought they need to build lcag for then) for little cost in exchange for old ships,,,mind you they MUST remain in port while upgrading.
 
HIO....i going thow in my 2 cents on this issue. THE 720 is only the base starting figure. THE time to upgrade has many other factors including MINISTER build bonus...doctrine bonus ..time to build a unit of the class you want to upgrade to (( which is of course effected by the mobilization level you are at)). IT ALWAYS SEEMS TC LOAD AND CLOSENESS TO capital effect time to upgrade (at least to me...sorry for thee caps) . ALso a factor is how up to date the unit you trying to cross upgrade is...an older 1921 infantry unit will take longer to upgrade than a 1936 to a 1935 motor infantry unit. Futhermore reinforcement can play a role...as reinforcing a unit will shorten its upgrade time. Personally i HATE the mobilization system and always rush to partial mobilization level as soon as possible. I sure there are many other factors that i missed so take anything i said with a grain of salt.
I was going to say this as well. A lot of players don't realize that the techs and ministers that decrease a unit's build time also decreases its upgrade time.
 
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yikes.....FORGOT TO mention the all important free enterprise vs centrism slider.....needless to say closer to being free enterprise means faster upgrade time ...
 
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THE 720 is only the base starting figure. THE time to upgrade has many other factors including MINISTER build bonus...doctrine bonus
That's certainly true for active upgrades in which you pour IC.
But are you sure that this is also the case for passive upgrades?

ALso a factor is how up to date the unit you trying to cross upgrade is...an older 1921 infantry unit will take longer to upgrade than a 1936 to a 1935 motor infantry unit.
Correct for active upgrades but I think it doesn't apply to passive upgrades. That's the reason why it is usually not a good idea to try to upgrade a 1916 infantry to a 1936 infantry via passive upgrades. My understanding is that it would take a minium of 10 years (or 30 years if the unit is only at 1/3 strength), 2 years for each single upgrade. Better to do the early fast and cheap upgrades by spending IC via the upgrade slider and the last, usually rather expensive upgrade, via passive upgrade. A cheesy workaround, though, is to passively cross-upgrade the oldest unit types eg 1916 inf to 1935 mountain (or MOT) which is counted as only 1 upgrade (and an horribly overpowered feature).

But all above are not 100% sure statements. I have never really bothered to test and check it by writing down the times.
What we are quite sure about after discussing it here, what certainly applies to passive upgrades:
# strength of the unit is a factor (see above posts)
# and each 1% reinforcement raises also upgrades by 0.5% (see misc.txt line and I have also checked it)
And my guess and feeling is that everything else is fixed around the 720 days for passive upgrades.

all the light cruisers with C starting in their name are sent to port at start of game and are upgrade to escort carriers.....all the level 1...level 2 heavy cruisers become light carriers
Splendid feature of mods like EoD but not possible with vanilla DH full. While I like it a lot, and even more to wipe the sea with my old transports upgraded to shiny new CLVs, I have to admit that it is horribly overpowered.
 
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