Historical separatism, yes; contemporary separatism, no.Originally posted by Marcus Valerius
Wouldn't it be relevant in this forum, in regard to possible alternate histories, though?
People have been confusing the two in this thread.
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People have been confusing the two in this thread.
I have to say I'm the one who wanered off a b it. But I want to hear people's opinion on the 1838 Patriots in Lower Canada (Québec). Don't forget that at the same time, Higher Canada (Ontario) rebelled against their King too.
That's right, but the Upper Canada rebellion wasn't nearly as important as the Lower Canada rebellion because it got crushed so quickly.
The rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada of which you speak weren't rebellions against the king per se. It was more of a rebellion against the corrupt governments of the colonies. The only people who could get the ear of the government at the time were the rich merchants and businessmen. They were more pro-democracy than pro-independence movements.
Yes, there was a document prepared ''13 demands'' or something, by the Patriots that was signed by certain political heads in both Québec and Ontario that was sent to the King in England. The London parlament just sent a formal ''No''.
That pissed off a lot of people, but in the end, just like what happened to the US of A, the Patriots declared independance of Québec and some did the same thing for Ontario. I think it was more about the independance and the fact to not have to rely on a crappy poor Mother Nation than democracy.
By the way, Gen. Wolfe, that's a... unique... name... I don't like...
That pissed off a lot of people, but in the end, just like what happened to the US of A, the Patriots declared independance of Québec and some did the same thing for Ontario. I think it was more about the independance and the fact to not have to rely on a crappy poor Mother Nation than democracy.
By the way, Gen. Wolfe, that's a... unique... name... I don't like...
Papineau and Mackenzie were quite different. The Upper Canada 'rebellion' really was much more like the "riots" mentioned above. But in Lower Canada there was a major uprising, and it's not implausible that it could have suceeded. If the Church had supported it...
But there's the rub if you ask me. Francophone Quebec was kept down through the agency of the Catholic church. The British didn't much care one way or the other about 'opressing' French Canadians- so long as things stayed quiet. The church was in a much stronger position under the British than it would have been under an independent Quebec - they had the experience of France to show them that. Could Quebecers really have overthrown the British and the Church at the same time? It's not clear to me.
By the way didn't the revolt start in 1837 not 1838?
But there's the rub if you ask me. Francophone Quebec was kept down through the agency of the Catholic church. The British didn't much care one way or the other about 'opressing' French Canadians- so long as things stayed quiet. The church was in a much stronger position under the British than it would have been under an independent Quebec - they had the experience of France to show them that. Could Quebecers really have overthrown the British and the Church at the same time? It's not clear to me.
By the way didn't the revolt start in 1837 not 1838?
Yes, I believe that I learned all about these rebellions back in Grade 8, and 1837 is the correct date (I think and I apologize if I am wrong).
PS. Separatism is a dead issue. Paying attention to politics here and around the world, separation was cleverly stupid, and an unneccesary goal. So please, don't try to fan the fires of hate, when the embers are dying. Quebec is part of Canada, and leave it at that.
PS. Separatism is a dead issue. Paying attention to politics here and around the world, separation was cleverly stupid, and an unneccesary goal. So please, don't try to fan the fires of hate, when the embers are dying. Quebec is part of Canada, and leave it at that.
Umm.. let's not get back to that issue again. Dark Knight noted that (at least in regards to this thread) they are two seperate things and so let's please not go off topic.
In addition, those are mighty provocative words you are using, i'd be careful where you step.
Back on topic: From what I've read it was in 1837, but of course in my school we don't learn much (we don't learn anything) of history before WW1.. :-/
Sorry, but that's how I feel, but it is unsuitable here, so I'll stop now...anyways, the rebellions might be a good event, as it will be a cause for Britain to keep troops in the Canadian area. But will the rebels just be ragtag masses, or will they have the opportunities like the regular armies to have leaders for them (like say Papineau)? That would enhance them somewhat. Will rebellions be like in EUII (as in every month all across my country) or in HOI (even at 100% dissent nothing)?
Sorry to say, but Papineau didn't take part into the Rebellion. He was the political head that stated it, he was the one giving speaches for the reconnaissance of Lower Canada as a autonome and democratic nation with it's own rights. He took part in the demands written to London.
But as soon as things got stirred up, as soon as the Rebellion started, he fled to the United States. I think Lorimier was the one directing the rebellion. The Insurrection could have been successfull if the Church would have supported it. But since France lost New France to England in 1760, the only moral authority in Québec was the Church and it stayed that way for a long time. Before England conquered New France, the Church didn't hold that much importance because there was an elite, there was a moral authority other than priests, a thing that was cut off with the Conquest. So that's why the rebellion didn't succeed, it wasn't supported by the Church neither by any foreign nations.
But as soon as things got stirred up, as soon as the Rebellion started, he fled to the United States. I think Lorimier was the one directing the rebellion. The Insurrection could have been successfull if the Church would have supported it. But since France lost New France to England in 1760, the only moral authority in Québec was the Church and it stayed that way for a long time. Before England conquered New France, the Church didn't hold that much importance because there was an elite, there was a moral authority other than priests, a thing that was cut off with the Conquest. So that's why the rebellion didn't succeed, it wasn't supported by the Church neither by any foreign nations.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1838 Patriots (Québec and Ontario)
Quebec is a founding member of the Canadian Confederation. Quebecers are Canadians. You talk as though you wish to contradict all that Canada stands for- multiculturalism, multilingualism, and an open, tolerant society.
Your hyper-nationalist opinions are thankfully in the minority in Quebec today. Polls place support for sovereignty at 30% support. The PQ were ousted by the Liberals. And so hyper-nationalist people such as your self come to obscure forums in hope of an open microphone. This thread is definately OT, and should be closed. Silence this propagandist.
Quebec is a founding member of the Canadian Confederation. Quebecers are Canadians. You talk as though you wish to contradict all that Canada stands for- multiculturalism, multilingualism, and an open, tolerant society.
Your hyper-nationalist opinions are thankfully in the minority in Quebec today. Polls place support for sovereignty at 30% support. The PQ were ousted by the Liberals. And so hyper-nationalist people such as your self come to obscure forums in hope of an open microphone. This thread is definately OT, and should be closed. Silence this propagandist.
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Originally posted by KrsLascar
Canadians do like to trample the civil rights of their native baby seal population no?
Its called hunting. Do not compare apples to oranges. The discussion topic was HUMAN rights.
For the record, the seal hunt is regulated by the government ... and only a tiny part of the population- mostly aboriganals, I might add- participate in this industry.
You would have done better to cite the treatment of aboriganal peoples in the residental school system, the inprisonment of Japanese in BC during WWII, etc.
And if you want to discuss human rights abuses... France has a long history that you should perhaps research...involving some 400 years of colonalism.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1838 Patriots (Québec and Ontario)
Ok can someone tell him this discussion is OVER ? We are talking about the 1838 PATRIOTS here. I won't sit around getrting myself kicked on the neck forever. Read the last messages and answer to these. My last post was good. It reflected what happened in 1838 with Papineau. This is the topic. If you'd want to, you could always go to the OT forum.
Ok can someone tell him this discussion is OVER ? We are talking about the 1838 PATRIOTS here. I won't sit around getrting myself kicked on the neck forever. Read the last messages and answer to these. My last post was good. It reflected what happened in 1838 with Papineau. This is the topic. If you'd want to, you could always go to the OT forum.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1838 Patriots (Québec and Ontario)
You lace your posts with propoganda and half-truths and then when someone corrects some content you demand an end to the discussion. This whole thread is off topic, but that was intentional on your part. The original topic was just a way for you to bridge over to separtist revisionist history. I hope the mods close this thread asap.
You lace your posts with propoganda and half-truths and then when someone corrects some content you demand an end to the discussion. This whole thread is off topic, but that was intentional on your part. The original topic was just a way for you to bridge over to separtist revisionist history. I hope the mods close this thread asap.
Niptium, if you want to preach about Quebec independence, that's what the off topic forum is for. Go there rather than start very thinly veiled topics here pushing that agenda.
I have apologized before for taking a few posts off topic. My topic is the 1838 Patriots and that's an event that WILL have to make it in Victoria, especially in Québec.
Here I found the original text of the Déclaration d'Indépendance du Bas-Canada en 1838. It's obviously written in french. But, surprisingly, it was printed in the Unites States, so to a french reader, that explains the many ortograph mistakes and the lack of any accent like é,è,ê,à....
I was quite (hapily) flabbergasted by the place Nelson (the one who wrote the Déclaration) given to the few english people already in the colony ; equal importance would have been given to french and english languages in public matter, wich is bizarre because today, every public matter HAS to be in french. It was really a insurrection against Great Britain, and not against english people living in Québec. Also, you can read in the 4th statement that every link between the Church and the State will be abolished. That may be why the Church was preaching Québécois to not take any part in the rebellion.
Here it is.
DECLARONS SOLENNELLEMENT :
1. Qu'a compter de ce jour, le Peuple du Bas-Canada est ABSOUS de toute allegeance a la Grande-Bretagne, et que toute connexion politique entre cette puissance et le Bas-Canada cesse des ce jour.
2. Que le Bas-Canada doit prendre la forme d'un gouvernement REPUBLICAIN et se declare maintenant, de fait, REPUBLIQUE.
3. Que sous le Gouvernement libre du Bas-Canada, tous les citoyens auront les memes droits; les sauvages cesseront d'etre sujets a aucune disqualification civile quelleconque, et jouiront des memes droits que les autres citoyens de l'Etat du Bas-Canada.
4. Que toute union entre l'Eglise et l'Etat est declaree abolie, et toute personne a le droit d'exercer librement la religion et la croyance que lui dicte sa conscience.
5. Que la Tenure Feodale ou Seigneuriale est, de fait, abolie, comme si elle n'eut jamais existe dans ce pays.
6. Que toute presonne qui porte ou portera les armes, ou fournira des moyens d'assistance au Peuple Canadien dans sa lutte d'emancipation est dechargee de toutes dettes ou obligations reelles ou supposees, envers les seigneurs, pour arrerages en vertu de Droits Seigneuriaux ci-devant existants.
7. Que le "Douaire Coutumier" est, a l'avenir, entierement aboli et prohibe.
8. Que l'emprisonnement pour dettes n'existera plus, sauf les cas de fraude evidente que l'on specifiera dans un Acte de Legislature du Bas-Canada a cet effet.
9. Que la peine de mort ne sera prononcee que dans le cas du meurtre seulement et pas autrement.
10. Que toute Hypotheque sur Bien-fonds devra etre speciale pour etre valide, devra etre enregistree dans des Bureaux crees a cet effet par un Acte de Legislature du Bas-Canada.
11. Qu'il aura la liberte pleine et entiere de la Presse dans toutes les matieres et affaires publiques.
12. Que le proces par JURY est garanti au peuple de l'Etat, dans son etendue la plus liberale dans les proces criminels, et dans les affaires civiles au montant d'une certaine somme a etre determinee par la Legislature de l'Etat du Bas-Canada.
13. Que comme une necessite et un devoir du Gouvernement envers le Peuple, l'education publique et generale sera mise en operation et encouragee d'une maniere speciale, aussitot que les circonstances pourront le permettre.
14. Que pour assurer la franchise et la liberte elective, toute election se fera par le moyen du BALLOT.
15. Qu'aussitot que les circonstances pourront le permettre, le Peuple choisira des Delegues suivant la division actuelle du pays dans les Villes, Bourgs et Comtes qui constitueront une Convention, ou un Corps Legislatif, afin de baser et d'etablir une Constitution, selon les besoins du pays, et conformeront aux dispositions de cette Declaration, sujette a etre modifiee suivant la volonte du Peuple.
16. Que toute personne male au-dessus de l'age de vingt-un ans aura le droit de voter ainsi que pourvu ci-dessus, pour l'election des Delegues sus-nommes.
17. Que toutes les Terres dites de la Couronne, ainsi que celles appelees reserves du clerge, et celles qui sont nominalement en possession d'une certain compagnie de speculateurs en Angleterre appelee "Compagnie des Terres de l'Amerique Britannique du Nord", deviennent de plein droit, la propriete de l'Etat du Bas-Canada, sauf telles portions des dites terres, qui peuvent etre en possession de cultivateurs, qui les tiennent de bonne foi pour les quelles nous garantissons des titres en vertu d'une loi qui sera passee afin de legaliser la possession de tels lots de terres, situes dans les "Townships" qui sont maintenant en culture.
18. Qu'on se servira des langues Francaise et Anglaise dans toutes matieres publiques.
Here I found the original text of the Déclaration d'Indépendance du Bas-Canada en 1838. It's obviously written in french. But, surprisingly, it was printed in the Unites States, so to a french reader, that explains the many ortograph mistakes and the lack of any accent like é,è,ê,à....
I was quite (hapily) flabbergasted by the place Nelson (the one who wrote the Déclaration) given to the few english people already in the colony ; equal importance would have been given to french and english languages in public matter, wich is bizarre because today, every public matter HAS to be in french. It was really a insurrection against Great Britain, and not against english people living in Québec. Also, you can read in the 4th statement that every link between the Church and the State will be abolished. That may be why the Church was preaching Québécois to not take any part in the rebellion.
Here it is.
DECLARONS SOLENNELLEMENT :
1. Qu'a compter de ce jour, le Peuple du Bas-Canada est ABSOUS de toute allegeance a la Grande-Bretagne, et que toute connexion politique entre cette puissance et le Bas-Canada cesse des ce jour.
2. Que le Bas-Canada doit prendre la forme d'un gouvernement REPUBLICAIN et se declare maintenant, de fait, REPUBLIQUE.
3. Que sous le Gouvernement libre du Bas-Canada, tous les citoyens auront les memes droits; les sauvages cesseront d'etre sujets a aucune disqualification civile quelleconque, et jouiront des memes droits que les autres citoyens de l'Etat du Bas-Canada.
4. Que toute union entre l'Eglise et l'Etat est declaree abolie, et toute personne a le droit d'exercer librement la religion et la croyance que lui dicte sa conscience.
5. Que la Tenure Feodale ou Seigneuriale est, de fait, abolie, comme si elle n'eut jamais existe dans ce pays.
6. Que toute presonne qui porte ou portera les armes, ou fournira des moyens d'assistance au Peuple Canadien dans sa lutte d'emancipation est dechargee de toutes dettes ou obligations reelles ou supposees, envers les seigneurs, pour arrerages en vertu de Droits Seigneuriaux ci-devant existants.
7. Que le "Douaire Coutumier" est, a l'avenir, entierement aboli et prohibe.
8. Que l'emprisonnement pour dettes n'existera plus, sauf les cas de fraude evidente que l'on specifiera dans un Acte de Legislature du Bas-Canada a cet effet.
9. Que la peine de mort ne sera prononcee que dans le cas du meurtre seulement et pas autrement.
10. Que toute Hypotheque sur Bien-fonds devra etre speciale pour etre valide, devra etre enregistree dans des Bureaux crees a cet effet par un Acte de Legislature du Bas-Canada.
11. Qu'il aura la liberte pleine et entiere de la Presse dans toutes les matieres et affaires publiques.
12. Que le proces par JURY est garanti au peuple de l'Etat, dans son etendue la plus liberale dans les proces criminels, et dans les affaires civiles au montant d'une certaine somme a etre determinee par la Legislature de l'Etat du Bas-Canada.
13. Que comme une necessite et un devoir du Gouvernement envers le Peuple, l'education publique et generale sera mise en operation et encouragee d'une maniere speciale, aussitot que les circonstances pourront le permettre.
14. Que pour assurer la franchise et la liberte elective, toute election se fera par le moyen du BALLOT.
15. Qu'aussitot que les circonstances pourront le permettre, le Peuple choisira des Delegues suivant la division actuelle du pays dans les Villes, Bourgs et Comtes qui constitueront une Convention, ou un Corps Legislatif, afin de baser et d'etablir une Constitution, selon les besoins du pays, et conformeront aux dispositions de cette Declaration, sujette a etre modifiee suivant la volonte du Peuple.
16. Que toute personne male au-dessus de l'age de vingt-un ans aura le droit de voter ainsi que pourvu ci-dessus, pour l'election des Delegues sus-nommes.
17. Que toutes les Terres dites de la Couronne, ainsi que celles appelees reserves du clerge, et celles qui sont nominalement en possession d'une certain compagnie de speculateurs en Angleterre appelee "Compagnie des Terres de l'Amerique Britannique du Nord", deviennent de plein droit, la propriete de l'Etat du Bas-Canada, sauf telles portions des dites terres, qui peuvent etre en possession de cultivateurs, qui les tiennent de bonne foi pour les quelles nous garantissons des titres en vertu d'une loi qui sera passee afin de legaliser la possession de tels lots de terres, situes dans les "Townships" qui sont maintenant en culture.
18. Qu'on se servira des langues Francaise et Anglaise dans toutes matieres publiques.
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