16 bugs/design inconsistencies that have existed for multiple patch cycles

[checro]

I told DDRJake about double CtA several months ago as a show of good faith. I asked Florry not to use it until 1.25 under the impression that anything shown on stream would have a higher chance of getting fixed. But what happened is the other exploit I mentioned but the devs already knew about and Florry has used already did get fixed, which was double peace, while double CtA still works. I would prefer that it remains unfixed for the time being since it's a fun exploit that allows for some crazy scenarios such as an HRE vs. Ottomans vs. Ming world war pre 1500, or perhaps a sub 1600 Mare Nostrum. And of course because there are much more important problems to address than niche exploits.

Double peace was also stealth fixed, the change wasn't in the patch notes. It was pretty much only useful for cutting down big blobs during WCs, and only had a dramatic impact on perhaps speed WCs. But then Marco improved on the previous fastest WC time by more than 10 years without double peace so it turned out to be not that important after all.

As for to CoB vs. not to CoB, backups are the only way since the default backup syncs up with the main save file after 1.23 because reasons.

Yeah, I really don't understand the obsession with these extreme bugs... Exposed players like florry use them as entertainment, or like you, marco, bbq etc in extreme WCs nobody wants to do, just watch and have fun.. Normal players, first WC-use all exploits, second-I won't do "that", third-totally legit.. I just don't see a problem in that state of things..
I mean, they should be fixed at a point, but not when you have so much bug reports that the forum can't handle them.

 

[alexti]

What's funny is that even after Trin added the 'remove_non_electors_emperors_from_empire_effect' script there are still two or three formation decisions that allow it. One is Byzantium which can still be used for a fast revoke, though not as effectively.

Yep. I think they forgot to update those.

I actually thought that the reason the England decision worked while the France decision didn't was intended. And now since everything else has been fixed except for Byzantium I now assume they're simply careless. Although for getting double IA, abdicating/re-election or changing religions are still faster, I hope those aren't considered exploits.

I thought that the England decision was intentional too. There was much discussion about it, but it wasn't changed (while many other decisions were). But now they've changed it. Not sure about Byzantium decision. It doesn't really make a huge difference for HRE game. If you plan to continue the game after the revoke it's probably not even a good strategy.

I do hope the custom nation exploit gets fixed since runs that are done with those exploits can be passed off, and are, as legitimate. It's also something that goes beyond existing game mechanics and has to do with file editing. As for all the other exploits I agree.

Oh, so it's a different exploit - the one I am aware of doesn't involve file editing or anything dubious But if someone passes the run involving file editing as legitimate, what's to stop one to simply editing data in memory to achieve their goals? Trying to prevent people from doing that when they run the game on the machine they have full control over is a hopeless task...

 

[alexti]

I think PDX does update their anti-hack frequently to fight CE and protect the integrity of ironman so this seems like something that should be addressed with urgency.

Considering that restart/reload-scumming is still a thing in ironman I doubt that this is viewed as high priority.

The Byzantium double revoke could potentially be fast if the date exploit is used that gives HRE religious peace from day one. If not then the extra IA can only be used for revoke IA since forming Byzantium requires converting to Orthodox and can only be done after the sixth reform while still remaining emperor.

If using the date exploit it would be something like going Cathoman, getting elected, taking Orthodox land and adding provinces, add enough for maybe 3-4 reforms, shift to Byzantium, add again for 6th/7th. It would definitely be easier than using the England decision. Can also sneak in an abdicate where you piss off the electors before abdicating, lose emperorship, then vassalize/kill the new emperor and getting relected again.

Although the fastest revoke on current patch would still be a horde using abdicate.

I meant that if your goal is something like fast WC, you don't want to pass 7th reform too early and if your goal is fast OF, you probably even want to delay the 5th reform. So fast 7th reform seems useful only if it's (or 8th reform) your ultimate goal.

 

[Jibril]

I don't think PDX have any intentions of fixing any of the aforementioned bugs/inconsistencies posted in the original thread. This thread has existed for almost 5 months, there isn't a dev response to this thread, and as the original poster mentioned these obnoxious bugs has existed for multiple patch cycles.

PDX wants to innovate and get that DLC $$$ and clearly it's working cuz I keep on buying them. -_-

I like how they keep the game fresh, but yes there are definitely things to improve on.

 

[brifbates]

I like the one where peacing a nation out of the war separately will result in the enemy still having conditional or other access while you no longer do even when your war is the only one the enemy is involved in..

 

[Laaaaan]

AND DON'T FORGET:

colonial nations. are they still able to seperate peace?

 

[SirGregMac]

AND DON'T FORGET:

colonial nations. are they still able to seperate peace?

It's annoying when I'm trying to feed a CN, but then they peace out with only some of the provinces I had assigned them, so now I can't give them provinces in the peace treaty I sign.

 

[alexti]

Protestant/Reformed princes can be force converted with Enforce Religion vassal interaction. The timing is delicate but I think it's still better to revoke asap if Reformation is a problem. For fast WCs it is indeed better to wait until the most possible vassals can be released via Return Province before revoking. But from having tried both ways I think the difference of a few minor princes won't matter that much. It's more important to get the swarm going as long as there are enough cores for maybe 70+ princes. The ones that will be doing the heavy lifting are high dev tags like Bohemia, Brandenburg, Savoy, Austria, etc, who will always be part of the revoke. Some of the best coring tags like Anatolian minors can still be released later if not starting as the Ottomans. But in general I agree there's an optimal revoke timing for the purpose of a fast WC and it's usually not asap.

The downside of revoking early is that you lose ability to quickly disassemble the blobs (such as France, England, Castille, Ottomans). You can only take 100% WS from them per war. Then you need to find a universal CB (otherwise DIP becomes a problem) and if you take inf+adm, then you won't have one until after ADM 10. So I am not sure if getting early swarm really helps much - you have huge coring capacity, but you're limited by DIP costs and the truces. I would lean towards delaying the swarm and letting princes expand independently until I get a universal CB and disassemble the blobs. In respect to religion my preference is to eliminate reformation centers quickly, though I am not sure if it's the best approach.

 

[alexti]

European blobs can be forced into the HRE via taking their capital, adding it to the HRE then giving it back and taking their new capital. It can even be done vs. Ming by forming Qing and giving back Beijing.

Are they all guaranteed to move the capital back? It is strictly guaranteed only for nations with fixed capitals. Otherwise AI doesn't like to move the capital into exposed position, so you need to be careful about what you take and UI won't show it, of course.

I go Dip/Religious as non horde emperor, Dip/Adm as horde. A lot of wars before revoking don't involve taking land but releasing tags or giving land away. The only land that really needs to be cored are Orthodox provinces for adding and releasing. Revoking gives something like 10x the combined army size and the trade income from most of Europe via "divert trade." The only reason I can see for not revoking asap is to wait until more princes can be released. The more tags there are the stronger the swarm so it's better if the HRE is as fractured as possible. Each individual tag has its own FL, monarch point generation and primary culture/religion land. The strongest possible HRE would be if every existing core in Europe is made into a prince and the emperor only keeps his own primary culture states with Asian/Persian borders for CB. All land that can be given away and released should be before revoking.

Yeah, if you take Religious as a second it removes one of the primary motivations to postpone revoke. I am not sure that number of princes matters that much though - there are only so much lines of expansion, so increase in coring power is irrelevant and the military power seems to be always sufficient. So I don't really bother with coring and releasing everything except tags with good ideas or located in right spots. I mean I would be fine with releasing, but I don't want to waste points and time coring. What do you take as your 3rd idea group? Or you're finishing WC before that?

 

[alexti]

They're not guaranteed to move it back after taking only their new capital, but it's pretty much guaranteed if you take a chunk of their highest dev primary culture and religion provinces. The exact criteria is unknown but it's generally something like primary culture = religion > dev > border vs. enemy > claims. The AI will usually pick the highest dev primary culture/religion province unless it borders a lot of enemies and/or has a lot of claims and/or is isolated from the rest of the country.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I wonder if the better strategy is to feed blob's capital to your HRE ally and then switch sides and help the blob to reclaim their capital (after it was added to HRE)

It's true that there can only be so many lines, and the earlier the WC the shorter the coring range. I usually distribute the pathways to hordes for everything north of Timurids all the way to Korea, and Anatolian minors for everything through Timurids and Mamluks down to Kilwa and some of India. Western Africa can be given in hops to some of the Dutch minors that take Admin.

I generally do something similar, though I like to use Christian theocracies too.

I like releasing every tag possible because non primary culture land is just so much more useful to them as it is to me. Each prince no matter how small gets a default FL which is increased by being a march.

If I can release tag for free I will, but I don't want to pay DIP or ADM for it, or in some cases even to fight a war for that. There is also a factor of large princes using their armies more sensibly, then the small OPMs. Though none of them seem to use barrage - I wish I could find a way to teach them to use it - surely they can find some MIL to spare?

 

[kakatua]

I think this speed-WC discussion is a bit out of topic.

 

[grandadmiralbob]

I can't agree more, as I just had an opportunity to kill the Ottomans early. Me, Hungary, and my ally, PLC, attacked the Turk. I sieged down Edirne and won, and went to Constantinople. I won a battle in Edirne, so I sat there while the fort garrison and my army replinished. Afterwards at the Const. siege, the Ottomans tried to siege back Edirne. The Poles were sieging down Macedonia, and Gazikhumukh, because they are obviously a huge threat to world peace. : l Anyways, the Turk split their armies at Edirne and went back to Anatolia because of rebels. I decided to leave 1 guy on Constantinople and crush a 15ish stack at Edirne. I could NOT go back to it. Under the wonderful leadership of some jackass, the Poles decided to stop sieging down Macedonia and go attack some random army near Belgrade. While they were engaging, the full Ottoman army returned to Constantinople and attacked me. Even though outnumbered, I had a 5 shock general, and I was at tech 5, they at mil tech 4, I still barely lost, which sure I guess. It would probably have historically happened. Way after I was defeated the Poles decided to attack the victorious Ottoman army, lost, and fell back from Plovdiv, to.... Edirne and got wiped. Woohoo, I love the fort system and how the AI is so feeble minded. Please Paradox, fix or revert this. I never play ironman, so I just reloaded but the problem is still there as mentioned in @bbqftw's example in Aragon, and maybe I'm the only one to see this, but when the AI is at positive siege progress, they just stop. The Poles did it in Macedonia, as well as the Dagestani capitol. Myself, bbqftw, and others are NOT the only ones to report this, and it has been happening for years now. So maybe instead of adding more bonus buttons, fix what you have. I have already pre-ordered Dharma but some of these issues have gone on waaay too long, and I'm sure you guys have lost some money on the fact that, in a complex game like this, if a new players experiences the same thing, they will be confused and may shy away from the game.

 

[alexti]

I think this speed-WC discussion is a bit out of topic.

Good point. Sorry.

 

[Yevardian]

PLEASE ALLOW ROOM FOR LOBBY CHAT WINDOW WHEN USING CUSTOM NATION BUILDER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 

[bbqftw]

I think this speed-WC discussion is a bit out of topic.

its ok, it make little difference to the outcome, which is status quo

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think this speed-WC discussion is a bit out of topic.

It does have some causal relation. Many of the prioritized "fixes" have come as a response to exactly this kind of speed-WC discussion/posting (including some of the HRE discussion). Similarly, the more you try to optimize the more noticeable some of these problems can be.

There are exceptions. Wrong UI for example can influence true newbies and casual players as much or more than WC players, though less frequently since they play ~ 1/50th the time in many cases. But the trashed vassals, wrong-coring rules, and degenerate balance all get felt increasingly more as you push the limits of the game.

 

[FleetingRain]

Oh hey caught one tooltip mismatch in the wild.

Spoiler

50 is not 50, it seems.

 

[Ironside121]

Oh hey caught one tooltip mismatch in the wild.

Spoiler

50 is not 50, it seems.

49.9 is not 50- but the numbers are rounded so displays 50.

 

[MarshalRomel]

Every patch I do my Tunis game where I declare on the mamluks and call the Otto's in with promise of land. And every patch despite them having claims on Syria/marked as vital. They still reject it and it just baffles me (and yes they can core it).

 

[FrogCrusher]

I don't know if it can be called a bug: in my Russia game, Ming ate Mongolia and created a border with me They tank themselves their mandate xD