1568: New Order III

[Hive]

But fine. Give me a core on Iceland. Perhaps Sweden can be persuaded to part with it for the greater good.

Will do.

And yes, I know about the dikes... but giving you a core on Jakarta does not actually make your mainland harder to invade, so it wouldn't solve *that* problem.

As to other news, I have decided to create a land connection between Calais and Iceland.

Oh, and also: We will from now on start at 19:30 CET instead, to accomodate PJL.

 

[Slargos]

Although if all the other players agree with me, I think you should make it Jakarta.

 

[ForzaA]

The Netherlands *was* extremely difficult to invade historically, due to the very intricate system of dikes and fortifications. Something that is impossible to simulate in EU2.

On the other hand, one good winter and the Netherlands fall...

the *prime* Dutch defense was the Rhine, which was uncrossable against opposition, unless when it was frozen solid (it happened once or twice) or quite a distance into Germany. Removing the land connection from Zeeland to Holland, and from Zeeland to Gelre (and likely also to the German provinces bordering Zeeland) would, IMNSHO, be a good way to simulate this, but I doubt Hive's gonna implement that. The rest of the Netherlands' high "defensive value" was basically just fortification, so you'll just have to invest, dear Slargos

 

[Hive]

Although if all the other players agree with me, I think you should make it Jakarta.

No.

Besides, Forzaa just gave you the perfect explanation AND solution: build forts.

I find it extremely silly that some nation invading you (let's call that nation "France", just to pick a random name ) should have to conquer some colony in the far east in order to defeat you. Portugal's "colonial core", as you claim it is, is almost in Europe. Furthermore, Portugal isn't a player nation anymore - and is thus irrelevant to your situation, as you can't really compare yourself to it anymore.

 

[ForzaA]

No.

Besides, Forzaa just gave you the perfect explanation AND solution: build forts.

half the solution, really

 

[unmerged(18425)]

No.

Besides, Forzaa just gave you the perfect explanation AND solution: build forts.

I find it extremely silly that some nation invading you (let's call that nation "France", just to pick a random name ) should have to conquer some colony in the far east in order to defeat you. Portugal's "colonial core", as you claim it is, is almost in Europe. Furthermore, Portugal isn't a player nation anymore - and is thus irrelevant to your situation, as you can't really compare yourself to it anymore.

I don't think this are really good arguments.

Basically you can argue historically or for balancing purposes.

Historically, the Dutch were extremely hard to conquer, this is not reflected well enough in the game. You can argue it is silly to have to conquer Jakarta to force the Dutch to surrendering, but I find it silly to force them to accept any peace when you have assaulted succesfully a few fortresses.

As for balancing purposes, the same counts. The Netherlands are by far the easiest conquerable minor in the game, except perhaps Brandenburg. This makes their situation quite weak and almost forces them to have good relations with France.

I think it would be quite refreshing to see the Dutch with a core somewhere else, á la Portugal.

 

[Hive]

Well that's why I agreed to give him a core on Iceland. I refuse to give him a core on a province on the far side of the world...

 

[Slargos]

On the other hand, one good winter and the Netherlands fall...

the *prime* Dutch defense was the Rhine, which was uncrossable against opposition, unless when it was frozen solid (it happened once or twice) or quite a distance into Germany. Removing the land connection from Zeeland to Holland, and from Zeeland to Gelre (and likely also to the German provinces bordering Zeeland) would, IMNSHO, be a good way to simulate this, but I doubt Hive's gonna implement that. The rest of the Netherlands' high "defensive value" was basically just fortification, so you'll just have to invest, dear Slargos

This is actually a sound idea. The rivers could be replaced with straits like in the case of Venice so movement could be blockaded. An invader, let's call him Franconia ( ) would have to either defeat the navy or go around into germany in order to bypass those impediments.

 

[Hive]

This is actually a sound idea. The rivers could be replaced with straits like in the case of Venice so movement could be blockaded. An invader, let's call him Franconia ( ) would have to either defeat the navy or go around into germany in order to bypass those impediments.

I like that idea as well - but I can't implement new straits.

 

[Slargos]

I like that idea as well - but I can't implement new straits.

You mean you won't.

 

[Hive]

You mean you won't.

No, I mean I *can't*.

But if you know how to do it, you could perhaps enlighten me?

 

[Slargos]

No, I mean I *can't*.

But if you know how to do it, you could perhaps enlighten me?

You're the modder.

You're just putting me down.

You're The Man.

Damn you.

DAMN YOU:

 

[ForzaA]

if you can't make straits, I would suggest making it *no connection*.

Blockable doesn't really make sense, since WS in the Northsea certainly could not block movement from Zeeland to Gelre..

Or you could leave it as is...

 

[Hive]

if you can't make straits, I would suggest making it *no connection*.

Blockable doesn't really make sense, since WS in the Northsea certainly could not block movement from Zeeland to Gelre..

Or you could leave it as is...

Well, I can't see how it makes sense that there is no land connection from Holland to the rest of the surrounding provinces at all, and that he can't move his troops from province to province himself even.

So it's either a strait or nothing. And I can't make straits, so... suggest it to Johan for the next beta. After all, he seems love straits... even imaginary ones...

 

[PJL]

Surely the problem of the Netherlands being too easy to conquer compared to reality can be solved by simply havnig large fortresses at the start of the sceanrio. I would rather have that than silly unhistorical CB shields in colonies or whatever. Although the straits idea is interesting.

 

[Hive]

Surely the problem of the Netherlands being too easy to conquer compared to reality can be solved by simply havnig large fortresses at the start of the sceanrio. I would rather have that than silly unhistorical CB shields in colonies or whatever. Although the straits idea is interesting.

Large fortresses might be overdoing it a bit... but perhaps medium, yeah.

 

[Slargos]

Large fortresses might be overdoing it a bit... but perhaps medium, yeah.

Large is the first size that is a real impediment to an attacker. Medium can be smashed through relatively easy with 65-70k troops while Large requires forces too large to make assaults feasible until mid-late game.

 

[Hive]

Large is the first size that is a real impediment to an attacker. Medium can be smashed through relatively easy with 65-70k troops while Large requires forces too large to make assaults feasible until mid-late game.

Exactly. And I don't want to make The Netherlands invulnarable untill mid-late game.

 

[Slargos]

Exactly. And I don't want to make The Netherlands invulnarable untill mid-late game.

It wouldn't be invulnerable. It would just take sieges to overrun it rather than a blitz-assault.

 

[PJL]

Actually, considering the Netherlands were overrun as early in the late 17tth century, perhaps medium forts would be better.