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Lessing

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Fine.

Remove the stab hit as penalty for breaking a truce.

Instead, give AE to all countries that care for the target country.

Makes more sense than Joe the Plumber rising up in Manhattan because I declare war on those poor Mamluks again.
 

grommile

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Also, as a game of skill EU is lacking, there are too many chance-based elements in there. I suppose in MP this is mitigated somewhat because you have to bluff, outwit and engage in clever diplomacy with other players (something I'm terrible at), but in SP I find it's much better to think of EU more as a 'sit back and enjoy the ride' game. Definitely I see little point in achievements, as you aren't winning them by pointing a crosshair or pushing the brake in the right part of the turn or racking up a high score, the RNG is doing most of the work for you.
For most of the achievements I've collected, I find that the RNG's contribution has mostly consisted of stumbling blocks and it certainly cannot be said to have been doing most of the work for me. (Certainly the RNG does very little of the work involved in "All Belongs To Mother Russia", and its involvement in my current pursuit of "Master of India" has been entirely negative.)

I mean i can't see this game as a good MP game because the games are too long to be played regularly.
I see it as a good niche MP game. (After all, there are actually people who have played tabletop games like Federation and Empire or World In Flames, which are notoriously time-consuming.)

Instead, give AE to all countries that care for the target country.
"Instead"? Stabhit wardecs already do that.
 

justin6477

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Forget about the fact that it's bursting with pretention (I'm doing something "wrong"?). Why am I doing something wrong? Please explain why a "rotation" of wars against various nations is not only "better", but in your mind a requirement to be playing the game properly. Please don't mistake me - I do this in most of my games. But I am sick of people telling other people how they should and should not play the game. I've never seen a community more rife with armchair gamers telling each other they're doing it "wrong".

Take note that I'm not actually saying that you need to rotate fronts; you can expand in a few directions without declaring war on the same nation(s) over, and over, and over again. What I'm saying that part of managing your nation is managing your rivals and making sure that they don't consolidate. Forcing nations to release vassals or liberate states (admittedly you get a truce with the new country as well, but whatever) is as important as direct conquest.

There are a few exceptions to this, but they're handled by the qualifier "probably".
 

Valynor

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Well, as much as I don't like long truce time, I fail to see how a negotiable one would solve the issue.
Would you pay some war score to reduce it? Then what would really change?

And Johan's post reminds me another not so good mechanic: fabricating claim. It's not bad per se, I mean, it worked for a long time in EU.
But I have a couple of problems with the way Johan address it. For one, it's not a very amusing thing to do in peace time. And secondly, the way it is now it's kind of funny. I understand fabricating calims once in a while, but having a claims factory working full time is a bit too much.
 

Fishman786

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For most of the achievements I've collected, I find that the RNG's contribution has mostly consisted of stumbling blocks and it certainly cannot be said to have been doing most of the work for me. (Certainly the RNG does very little of the work involved in "All Belongs To Mother Russia", and its involvement in my current pursuit of "Master of India" has been entirely negative.)
I don't mean that the RNG does the work, I mean that success is the difference between the RNG tripping you up and the RNG being nice. Battles are random, comet stab hits and other events are random, rulers are random, ruler deaths are random and even diplomacy is somewhat random (due to the addition of the monarch personalities, we experienced a nasty example in our succession game over in another forum). EUIV can be a very tricky game, but most of that trickiness comes from the very penalty-heavy randomness that exists. Unlike, say, Halo, which has basically no random elements, or (more similar to EUIV) Total War, in which randomness is kept at the margins of the game.
 

net.split

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I would like to see three kinds of wars that can be declared: "skirmish wars," "subjugation wars," and "total wars."

In a skirmish war you're battling for some small thing, like a province or two that you have claims/cores on, or a lesser casus belli like a trade war or dishonored call. With these, the war scores change much more quickly, and the AI doesn't have the stubborn "length of war" modifier (or at least a much smaller one that evaporates much more quickly). Certain concessions are barred from being selected in a skirmish war; for instance, you can't take provinces on your target's home continent that aren't included in your casus belli (colonies are fine though), and you can't force vassalize (unless you're able to annex with a skirmish, like having a claim on a OPM). Skirmish wars can be declared without a casus belli, but of course your ability to take stuff is limited (due to the aforementioned restrictions on concessions); you'd mostly do this for off-continent provinces or to pull in their allies who have provinces you do have claims / cores on. Truces from skirmish wars would be a lot shorter; 3-5 years typically.

A subjugation war would be fought between a powerful nation and a less powerful nation. You can only declare these in certain circumstances; for instance, if you have a casus belli to vassalize, or if you have claims / cores on their entire country and you're a certain size larger (say, 5x or greater), or you're a modernized nation invading a tribe, that sort of thing. War score would work as with current wars. Truce timers are mostly irrelevant since the typical result is the small nation gets absorbed, but 5-10 years makes sense for cases where the small nation survives.

Total wars, on the other hand, permit full annexation / vassalization, and you can also take lots more provinces than you can in the game today. This is Ottomans eating Mamluks sort of war. You can only declare a total war if you have an appropriate casus belli, and a nation can only declare one total war every 20* years (but can be declared on in such a manner without limit). War scores and AI peace behavior would work the same as with wars in the current version. War score costs of provinces taken would be something like 1/5 what they are now, and provinces conquered through a total war get a substantial (temporary) reduction to over-extension. This reduction would fade a bit annually, so a conquerer would have to devote constant resources to coring everything possible in order to prevent over-extension from shooting over 100% (but it should be possible to do). Alternatively, Create Vassal could be made available much earlier in the game, and you just split your newly-conquered area into a few vassals until you're able to annex.

Events, Policies, Ideas, and even government types would provide the ability to declare total wars more frequently (events popping to let you reduce the remaining timer in exchange for stability, policies and ideas that speed up the timer, revolutionary governments having no time limit at all, etc).

This would also largely fix the whole problem of the "peacetime game." You don't have a peacetime game; you have total wars, and then you have lesser wars in between them.


* Probably this should actually vary based on the size of your opponent.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I don't mean that the RNG does the work, I mean that success is the difference between the RNG tripping you up and the RNG being nice. Battles are random, comet stab hits and other events are random, rulers are random, ruler deaths are random and even diplomacy is somewhat random (due to the addition of the monarch personalities, we experienced a nasty example in our succession game over in another forum). EUIV can be a very tricky game, but most of that trickiness comes from the very penalty-heavy randomness that exists. Unlike, say, Halo, which has basically no random elements, or (more similar to EUIV) Total War, in which randomness is kept at the margins of the game.

Across a playthrough, events tend to even out to a degree (not perfectly, but regression towards mean). Early RNG is weighted far, far more heavily in terms of influence on outcome than late-game RNG.

For example, in my Sunset Invasion run France PU'd and integrated Portugal and a united HRE held Holland, making it considerably harder than if France doesn't blob up + get freebie CNs and you can just spank NED when you have a spare moment. Not harder by enough, however, to influence success on the achievement if you manage to kill off your first awful heir and get a decent one to westernize by 1530.

Similarly, a 10 year regency at the start of Jihad or 3 mountains is run-ending, instantly. As a game wears on, however, you can make it so that a regency isn't even possible.
 

BaZERGer

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Perhaps the truce length should be calculated independently for each participant in the war, or participants could have a shorter truce than the main partner when not recieving anything from the war, rather than making it a thing that you have to force the other allies to white-peace out before you finish the war, so you can declare war on them sooner.

I don't remember if it's already been like this, but if joining a defensive war didn't count as breaking truce, there'd be no truce-isolation issue with having different truce lengths for the defender.
 

josh127

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I just wanted to know if it was tied to people playing on slower pcs, and yes that is part of the factor..

When I play on my home pc, it takes about 30 seconds to run a year, and I never really had "15 years of waiting". In my current game of Russia, the only peaceful decade I had was when I westernised. Peace lasts for 3-4 years, when MP recovers, I build up some cash reserves, and build another dozen buildings.. Armies position to the next front takes a year, and during all this time I improve relation with everyone thats not my next target, and i fabricate as much claims as possible.

The speed of a year was a fair question, however, keep in mind that one feature of the game is to pop up and pause so you can react to events and understand what is going on in the world around you. If you're not playing competitive multiplayer this becomes a large aspect of the game.

Over the course of the game though, what you want/need to see changes. In the current state what I see in a game is usually the small countries getting eaten up and fewer and fewer countries to worry about. In this scenario the relations are much more defined and a lot of messages you might want to pause for at the start of the game will not be necessary. Of course, if you shut them off, in your next game you'll have to dig through the long list of popups to find and turn them back on again.

Also, to the point of attacking all neighbors, yes I do that, but I still run into yawnfests with truces that often make me shut the game off and I'm not in a hurry to get back to it and wait it out. In both my SP Kathiawar game and my MP co-op Ayutthaya game I got truce locked. Basically, at the start things are fine, but after 100 years or so you have a blob to the east (Ming), a blob to the west (Hindustan or Timurids or Persia or Ottomans) and then everyone else is a coalition. Of course, those blobs might be in the coalition as well. Once I'm fighting a coalition of all neighbors I only have 1 target to work on, unless I get lucky and a new member attacks me before the truce is up for some nations.
 

Chopain

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I just hate waiting 15 years to liberate a country in the HRE then noticing that the CB is expiring in 5 years or something like that. Can't keep the HRE as a OPM if I'm loosing my CB's due to stupid 15 years truce. I then have to wait and hope that the country I really want to fight is an ally that I am declaring on to get around the 15 year truce.
 

grommile

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I just hate waiting 15 years to liberate a country in the HRE then noticing that the CB is expiring in 5 years or something like that. Can't keep the HRE as a OPM if I'm loosing my CB's due to stupid 15 years truce.
I'll be blunt: Things that get in the way of keeping the HRE as an OPM are features, not flaws.
 

Elin

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An idea could be to say no truce but you can't annex a province you haven't claimed... easy to understand and pretty fair i would say.
You can change the claiming system a bit so that you can claim more than the neighboring provinces.
 

grommile

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Not really, as it applies to everyone.
Keeping the HRE as a blob is pretty easy as long as you don't actively annoy the electors.
 

Fishman786

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An idea could be to say no truce but you can't annex a province you haven't claimed... easy to understand and pretty fair i would say.
You can change the claiming system a bit so that you can claim more than the neighboring provinces.

Implement a bit of what they have in CK2: drastically limit the ability to take provinces outside of the war goals, make war score scale depending on what war goals you're using, and include a few invasion-type CBs that allow a country to conquer a massive amount of land at once.
 

grommile

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True, but the HRE is not a blob until after many reforms.
If Austria isn't a blob on day one, it's about as close to a blob as it's possible to be without being one.
 

unmerged(1823)

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I can respect this, but I still feel like we're having the wrong conversation. Even if we agree there is plenty to do during 15 year truces, what was the problem with 5 year truces to begin with? That's the discussion I feel would enlighten everyone, from the naysayers to the guys who's only argument currently is we're playing the game "wrong" ;)

In eu1, eu2, eu3, you had 5 year truces, and a recovery of a nation in 2-3 years maximum.

In Eu4, manpower is now a resource, and recoveries can take over ten years..