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Lazio74

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I saw some of these topics in several threads scattered, so I decided to open a joint discussion about it, and add some of my own.

My points are all historical and they are the following:
(If we find some sources I will link them below the main points (no wiki pls))

I. Serbia should be a vassal of the Ottomans

In the peace deal of 1444 July between Wladyslaw of Jagello and Murad II, Durad Brankovic agreed to pay 60k ducats annual tribute, and when the King decided to forsake the oath He even warned the Ottomans of the crusaders' coming and denied them passage. That's why they had to take the seashore pass to Adrianople. Between 1444 and 1456 Serbia denied military access to every Hungarian campaign aiming to harass the Ottomans, in 1448 at the 2nd battle of Kosovo Durad Brankovic even gave Murad tactical advices on how to beat Hunyadi.

(After the treaty of Szeged...)
"On 1444 aug 15 the formal agreement between Brankovic and Murad signed. By it the territory of reborn Serbia defined... ...George Brankovic also agreed to accept suzerainity and pay the sultan a tribute of 60 thousand ducats. And finally the sultan restored him his two blinded sons. The Ottomans it seems retained the important fortress of Krusevac. Thus the reborn state included Serbia north of the West Morava river Macva and Usora (or at least a part of it) on the Bosnian side of Drina."
John Van Anterwerp: The Late Medieval Balkans: A critical survey fom the late twelfth century, page 549 (1994 Universtiy of Michigan Press) - I found this source a little bit superficial, I will try to find a more detailed version.

There were also 1500 serbian cavalry and mostly german sappers (miners from the town of Novo Brdo) at the 1453 siege of Constantinople.

Crowley, Roger. 1453: the holy war for Constantinople and the clash of Islam and the West. New York: Hyperion, 2005. pp. 168–171. ISBN 1-4013-0850-3.


II. Bosnia should be two states

Kingdom of Bosnia

Ruler: Tomas Stjepan Kotromanic King of Bosnia (1443-1461)
Faith: Catholic
Provinces: Vizsok, Bosna, Donj Kranj (Jajce)
subsidized by Hungary (they wasn't supported by Habsburgs as their contender (Ullrich of Celje, husband of the daughter of King Tvrtko and rival of Hunyadi) couldn't make a valid claim, and with Hunyadi's support King Tomas was elected.

Principality of Hum or Duchy of St. Sava
Ruler: Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca Grand Duke of Bosnia (1435-1466), Herzog of Hum (1443-1466), Duke of St. Sava (1448-1466)
Faith: Orthodox
Provinces: Hum, Travunia
As the biggest of the Nobles he didn't accept a Catholic overlord after the death of King Tvtrko, and with Ottoman support revolted, claiming himself first the Herzog of Hum, then in 1448 Duke of St. Sava. He was a vassal of the Ottomans, then for some months a vassal of Aragon (in February of 1444), and again an Ottoman vassal until his death (and the dissolution of Bosnia in 1463).

There was only 1-2 years of peace between the two, when Kotromanic abandoned his wife to marry Vukcic's freshly catolisized daughter in 1446. Vukcic remained a friend/vassal of the Ottomans and Brankovic while Kotromanic a friend of Hungary.

Source: J. V. A. Fine: Late Medieval Balkans p 531, 554, 577.



III. Wallachia should be an instant target for the Ottomans

The so called crusader force of 1442-44 had nothing to do with the classic crusader countries. They were Wallachians (who were vassals of Hungary before the battle) Hungarian, Polish and Moldavian troops. In 1444 october Mircea of Wallachia tried to convince Wladyslaw at Nicopolis to abandon this campaign, but he failed to convince the king. Wladyslaw's army was only 15k strong. Wallachia refused to commit, but they sent a 4k strong aux cavalry force. Though they didn't commit to the battle of Varna, before that in 1442 and 1443 when the whole Rumelian force led by Hadim Sehabeddin were beaten twice in one year time. In these engagements they sent all their army against the padisah's forces, so Ottomans felt great anger against them. In 1445 they forced out of the Wallachians the Danube fort of Giurgiu and vassalized them.


IV. There should be one more Hungarian province (Nándorfehérvár(HUN)/Belgrade(Serbian)), a long one along the river Sava

In 1428 Sigismund von Luxemburg and Durad Brankovic after a lost war to the Ottomans agreed that the latter would take Hungarian lands worth of 50k ducats of annual income, and pay from it the Ottoman tribute. In exchange Sigismund gets all the forts along the river Danube for military purposes. From this day Hungary built a massive fortification system from Szendrő (Smederovo) to Szrebenik (Srbebenik) and organized it to one province guarding the precious river crossings along the Danube and Sava. This territory was under Hungarian control from 1428 to 1444 (1520-22) with only small changes, f.e. Szendrő falling to Ottomans in 1439 and given back to Serbia by the turks in 1444 and served its purpose well as the main defense against the overwhelming Ottomans. It was called the "Végvár"-system.


Nándorfehérvár was called "The Key of Hungary" at the time. If any other fortress fell the other forts and the hill&mountain terrain would halt enemies long enough, but at Nándorfehérvár things were different. If the enemy manages to secure the crossings of Sava and Danube at Nándorfehérvár, the road is open for them till Buda or even Wien.

So to speak the fort fell in 1521, between 1521 and 1525 all forts lost to the Ottomans near the area. In 1526 Hungarian armies lost a decisive battle at Mohács, then in 1529 and 1532 Sulejman was on road twice to the Ausrian capital.


It is a historical province meant to be on the map! After conquering Constantinople Murad II drove to Hungary in 1456. This fort (and the river crossing it secured) was the key to te country, if it fell the road to Buda and Wien would would have been opened. After the wondrous victory of Christian forces pope ordered to ring temple bells all over Europe at noon, to pay respect to heroics of the defenders. That's why they started the bell ringing which custom developed later to indicate time.

tess_keu4.png

output_VeZueo.gif


output_lCs0aE.gif



V. Smederevo is out of position

While creating the gif above I realized, that the real place of Smederovo (Szendrő) is not even in its province!

output_WxsHlI.gif


VI. Dobrogea should be on the map.
this issue:
Bessarabia (and Northern Silistria) should be two provinces: Tulcea and Kiliya, or the province border should be changed, as they are on the two sides of river Danube, one is Moldavian one is Ottoman.
Tulcea was taken by the Ottomans in 1420.
Stănică, Aurel (2004). "Tulcea. Un centru economic la Dunărea de Jos în secolul al XVI-lea". Peuce. S.N. Tulcea: Institutul de Cercetări Eco-Muzeale. II(XV): 199. ISSN 0258-8102.

Kiliya was Moldavia's main port and finally was taken by the Ottomans in 1484.
Sergiu Iopescu: The Romanian concept of the Crusade in the fifteenth century




VII. Nis remained under Ottoman control (on the border) in 1444.

I'm trying to find sources for this, but J.V.A. Fine doesn't mention it amogst the biggest cities and forts George Brankovic was returned.


I suggest only a little change in borders in this province's case, and renaming the same province Krusevac.

output_EEvfFj.gif
 
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otaats

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A couple of my pennies:

Concerning Niš: It was conquered by the Ottomans in the 15th century, becoming the seat of a sanjak initially in Rumelia Eyalet (1385-1443, 1448-1846), laterly in Niš Eyalet (1846-1864) and finally in Danube Vilayet (1864-1878). It was liberated by the Serbian Army in 1878 during the Serbian–Ottoman War (1876–78).

It was controlled by Serbia in 1444. But at that time it was a shade of city it was before, because it was ravaged in the Battle of Niš in 1443

The peace was broken in the same year by Hunyadi and king Władysław during the Crusade of Varna, which culminated in the Battle of Varna. Because of this he estranged from his Hungarian allies. A crusading army led by Regent John Hunyadi of Hungary was defeated by Sultan Murad II's forces at Kosovo Polje in 1448. This was the last concerted attempt in the Middle Ages to expel the Ottomans from southeastern Europe. Although Hungary was able to successfully defy the Ottomans despite the defeat at Kosovo Polje during Hunyadi's lifetime, the kingdom fell to the Ottomans in the 16th century. Branković also captured Hunyadi at Smederevo for a short time when he was going home from Kosovo in 1448.

The reason why Branković captured Hunyadi. If he was involved in another war against the Ottomans, Serbia would burn. You have to understand that Serbian rulers really had to adjust a lot due to their situation. It's not easy being in the middle of European powder keg.
 

Lazio74

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A couple of my pennies:

Concerning Niš: It was conquered by the Ottomans in the 15th century, becoming the seat of a sanjak initially in Rumelia Eyalet (1385-1443, 1448-1846), laterly in Niš Eyalet (1846-1864) and finally in Danube Vilayet (1864-1878). It was liberated by the Serbian Army in 1878 during the Serbian–Ottoman War (1876–78).

It was controlled by Serbia in 1444. But at that time it was a shade of city it was before, because it was ravaged in the Battle of Niš in 1443

The peace was broken in the same year by Hunyadi and king Władysław during the Crusade of Varna, which culminated in the Battle of Varna. Because of this he estranged from his Hungarian allies. A crusading army led by Regent John Hunyadi of Hungary was defeated by Sultan Murad II's forces at Kosovo Polje in 1448. This was the last concerted attempt in the Middle Ages to expel the Ottomans from southeastern Europe. Although Hungary was able to successfully defy the Ottomans despite the defeat at Kosovo Polje during Hunyadi's lifetime, the kingdom fell to the Ottomans in the 16th century. Branković also captured Hunyadi at Smederevo for a short time when he was going home from Kosovo in 1448.

The reason why Branković captured Hunyadi. If he was involved in another war against the Ottomans, Serbia would burn. You have to understand that Serbian rulers really had to adjust a lot due to their situation. It's not easy being in the middle of European powder keg.

From my point of view there are several problems with some of those wikipedia articles.

For me the dismantling of Nis sanjak, doesn't necessarily mean they gave back the fort or town of Nis.

In exchange for his assistance in the Szeged peace deal, Brankovics gave Hunyadi almost every Hungarian lands he owned, it is obvious for me, but after Wladyslaw's death there are some papers that Brankovic officially tried to get back his former Hungarian lands from Hunyadi, but with Hunyadi being the regent, he had no chance of doing it. So there was fierce, personal rivalry between the two in 1448.

Serbia, as I mentioned earlier, is a vassal of the padisah technically from 15 aug 1444, practically Brankovic arrives to Smederevo on 22 aug 1444. In the deal Brankovic gets back 24 named forts, not exactly (just almost) the land taken between 1427-1439. In reality it was a lot fewer as Srebenik was on the list and had been already taken from the Ottomans by Stjepan Tomas Kotromanic and it also gave Brankovic Zeta and Zvornik which was also occupied at the time by Venetians and Vukcic Kosaca and gave Brankovic Albania (northern part) which was in open war against the Ottomans.
Brankovic also agreed to pay 50 000 florins annually and field 3 000 auxilliary cavalry if the padisah asks him to.

In sep 1444 not that he didn't join, he denied military access to the 15 000 strong crusader army, and he was the first to inform Murad II, that christians is about to break truce.

In 1448 he was also on the side of the Ottomans. As Hunyadi tried to convince Brankovic to join, he informed the sultan of this "surprise attack" as Hunyadi imagined it, even before Hungarian army was started its journey. Then he positioned his army to block Albanians from uniting forces with Hunyadi, while denying military access and provisions from Hungarian army. He gave tactical advice on how to get Hungarians far from supply and cut it off, and in the battle how to envelop light cavalry and prevent it from returning to the mobile wagon-palisades.

For denying help, Hunyadi pillaged lands everywhere he rode in Serbia. When he lost the battle and Brankovic captured him, the Despot was really angry, for the lands in Hungary, for the pillaging of Serbia and generally he considered Hunyadi a lesser being because of his lower birth. First he wanted to give him to the sultan, only Hunyadi's Hungarian enemies' intervention saved him (or maybe the Despot was afraid of a christian revenge too). Hunyadi had to offer his older son as a hostage and his younger as a bride for Brankovic's daughter. 20 000 florins for the pillaging and all the Hungarian lands he got from him in 1444. Hunyadi released but didn't do any of his part of the deal, in fact he came back in 1450 and pillaged Serbia again.

Hunyadi captured Nis in 1448, when crossing it in the Vardar valley on his way to Kosovo fields, that's why the Ottomans recaptured it. Also on this wiki it is mentioned, that the sanjak was formed 11 Jan 1448, but the military campaign only began in September.

Brankovic do recaptured Nis on the autumn of 1443, but all crusader gains were taken back (except for Golubac and some minor forts near it), when they had to retreat from Zlatica-strait in 1443-44 winter.

Brankovic neither believed that western countries would ever help expelling the Ottomans nor that Hungary could defend Serbia effectively. He was really happy when he got back his country (at the age of 66 in 1444), he didn't want to give it away again. He also didn't believe Hunyadi's idea that they only have to win against Ottoman main forces once, then the whole Balkans would rebel. Finally they became rivals as nobles of Hungary. That's my explanation of the despot's actions and behaviour.

By the way:

I really searched a lot for the names of the 24 forts, but in Codex Epistolaris Saeculi Decimi Quinti T1 they only mention it as viginti quattor castris.
Nec solum conquievit sed prorsus extinctus est, dum Turcorum imperium potentissimum olim cunctis formidabile ita se v. serenitii notabilibus et muneribus amplissimis pacem quam servare nunquam etiam rogatum consueverat, rogaverit, temporalem vel perpetuam prout vestrae placeret maiestati, offerens conditiones pacis nunquam credibiles, quibus astruxit se regnum Rasciae, dominium Albanie et plures alias terras in diebus et regimine aliorum divae memoriae regum Ungariae occupatas cum viginti quattor castris insignibus interque Holubecz restituere, captivos relacare, centum aureorum millia solvere et viginti quingue millibus armatorum pro qualibet v. s. clarius accepimus.
In Dlugosz's XIII book there should be a Cracovian noble writing about it, only my latin is almost non-existent.
 
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Just a couple of things i didn't understand - don't get me wrong, i'm just trying to get to the bottom of this. There are a lot of things that i recognize from what you said, but i still mix up a lot of things by trying to figure out everything. More clearly, Branković's role in 1444.

- It looks like you're describing what happened in 1448 as something that happened in 1444. In 1444 Branković was on the side of the Christian army. His daughter, who was a wife of sultan, is thought to have a big role in signing the peace deal. Branković also offered the crusaders to stay in Niš (thus my conviction that Niš was under Serbian occupation), which they refused. About Battle of Varna, i don't know about Branković informing the Sultan. There's nowhere i can read that. But that did happen in 1448 - Branković didn't want to get himself and Serbia involved in another devastating war that would occur on Serbian soil (there was a lot of those at the time, you would admit), and he sided with Murad. Basically, all what you said about 1444, i read that happened in 1448.

EDIT: Sorry, i'm not trying to discredit you here or anything. I just never read anything similar to that from 1444, but i read something nearly identical that happened in 1448. So i am wondering is it possible you mixed years up?
 
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Nec solum conquievit sed prorsus extinctus est, dum Turcorum imperium potentissimum olim cunctis formidabile ita se v. serenitii notabilibus et muneribus amplissimis pacem quam servare nunquam etiam rogatum consueverat, rogaverit, temporalem vel perpetuam prout vestrae placeret maiestati, offerens conditiones pacis nunquam credibiles, quibus astruxit se regnum Rasciae, dominium Albanie et plures alias terras in diebus et regimine aliorum divae memoriae regum Ungariae occupatas cum viginti quattor castris insignibus interque Holubecz restituere, captivos relacare, centum aureorum millia solvere et viginti quingue millibus armatorum pro qualibet v. s. clarius accepimus.
In Dlugosz's XIII book there should be a Cracovian noble writing about it, only my latin is almost non-existent.

I tried Google translate :D I don't think it says much. It just mentions Raška and Albania. I mean, it doesn't say which fortresses were specifically returned. There are a lot of fortresses in Raška and Kosovo. However, take a look at this map. There are 29 medieval forts in Serbia, and 3 of them are in Vojvodina. 1 of them is Belgrade, and Šabac was built in 1471. That's exactly 24 forts!

577f1a49e750f96f8ec05e5b6eff0381.jpg

1.Bač
2.Beograd
3.Borač
4.Višegrad
5.Vršac
6.Golubac
7.Zvečan
8.Novigrad (Fetislam)
9.Koznik
10.Koprijan (Kurvingrad-Whore City)
11.Kruševac
12.Maglič
13.Markovo Kale
14.Mileševac
15.Niš
16.Novo Brdo
17.Jeleč (Novi Pazar/Trgovište)
18.Petrovaradin
19.Pirot
20.Prokuplje
21.Ram
22.Ras
23.Smederevo
24.Soko Grad
25.Stalać
26.Manasija
27.Ravanica
28.Užice - awesome fortress
29.Šabac
 
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One more thing!

Do you play EU regularly? Want to do a Hungary-Serbia run? We can correct some mistakes that were made in history, and remove kebab. Once i restore Serbian Empire borders, we could attend to.. other pressing matters :D If you live in Hungary, we can sync up quite well! We could talk some history and come to some kind of a conclusion/concencus, maybe both learn a thing or two, and make a mutual topic or something.. Not to flood these Balkan-Pannonian topics with 5 different threads :D
I'd love to, but first I have to buy a copy, but it's in the plans as soon as I'm complete with some of my work.

On the top of it I think I'm a complete newbie, "played" around 15-20 games only as an "advisor" with my nephew (he's an archeologist) this summer, but back then I really became disillusioned: despite choosing Hunyadi János as regent, the "posthomous" born Ladislaus von Habsburg spawned circa 8 times from 10 with an Heir killing the Hunyadi Mátyás event, forcing you to play with an 1/2/1 ruler who is 15 yrs old, with an heir who will die in years after his precedessor not speaking about the question regarding his ancestry. (Jesus reborn?). I don't want to be fast to judge, as I played really little since Rights of Man came out, but if this is not a bug, then it is not a clean way to make Austria PU on Hungary more likely.
 

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I tried Google translate :D I don't think it says much. It just mentions Raška and Albania. I mean, it doesn't say which fortresses were specifically returned. There are a lot of fortresses in Raška and Kosovo. However, take a look at this map. There are 29 medieval forts in Serbia, and 3 of them are in Vojvodina. 1 of them is Belgrade, and Šabac was built in 1471. That's exactly 24 forts!

577f1a49e750f96f8ec05e5b6eff0381.jpg

1.Bač
2.Beograd
3.Borač
4.Višegrad
5.Vršac
6.Golubac
7.Zvečan
8.Novigrad (Fetislam)
9.Koznik
10.Koprijan (Kurvingrad-***** City)
11.Kruševac
12.Maglič
13.Markovo Kale
14.Mileševac
15.Niš
16.Novo Brdo
17.Jeleč (Novi Pazar/Trgovište)
18.Petrovaradin
19.Pirot
20.Prokuplje
21.Ram
22.Ras
23.Smederevo
24.Soko Grad
25.Stalać
26.Manasija
27.Ravanica
28.Užice - awesome fortress
29.Šabac
I think I can understand the spoiler text, the one really hard for me is the Dlugosz XIII "cracoviensis" text.
In my opinion regnum Rasciae in our case refers to whole Serbia, I think in medieval latin Serbia=the territory near Raska=Rasciae.
 

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While Serbia could fairly be considered to be an Ottoman vassal before the crusade of Varna, I don't think it should be at game start. The Ottomans were beaten back, despite the victory at Varna, and needed time to recover. Serbia may have aided the Ottomans in the 1440s, but I suspect that had more to do with being afraid of being conquered by the Hungarians than having to pay a tribute to the Ottomans.

I do think that Nis should be considered an Ottoman core province, since they'd held it so long.

I also agree that the Duchy of St. Sava should exist at game start.

I don't agree that Wallachia should start a vassal of the Ottomans, since it was conquered back and forth by the Ottomans and Hungarians for the next 30 years, only finally being settled in the 1470s.
 

otaats

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While Serbia could fairly be considered to be an Ottoman vassal before the crusade of Varna, I don't think it should be at game start. The Ottomans were beaten back, despite the victory at Varna, and needed time to recover. Serbia may have aided the Ottomans in the 1440s, but I suspect that had more to do with being afraid of being conquered by the Hungarians than having to pay a tribute to the Ottomans.

I do think that Nis should be considered an Ottoman core province, since they'd held it so long.

I also agree that the Duchy of St. Sava should exist at game start.

I don't agree that Wallachia should start a vassal of the Ottomans, since it was conquered back and forth by the Ottomans and Hungarians for the next 30 years, only finally being settled in the 1470s.

And it wasn't an Ottoman vassal in 1444. It was an Ottoman vassal while under Despot Stefan (Đurađ Branković's predecessor).
 

PurpulaPhoenixum53

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DanubianCossak

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Whats the point of adding a tag that is essentially pretender revolt by game rules?

Simply add a pretender rebel stack in Bosnia...
 

DanubianCossak

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Because it existed independently for the first 39 years of game time. That's longer than Albania, Serbia, the Byzantines, etc.

Well this is not CK2 where a pretender gets spawned as a country on the map; there simply arent enough provinces to simulate such a detailed political thing. Thus the whole process is abstracted.

One has to be rational with adding content into the game, and a pretender revolt - even if its one that lasted a while - is after all just a pretender revolt, though it would be cool to have it on map if the map gets more detailed for EU5.

Dont have the strong feelings about it either way, so good luck. *shrugs*
 

chegitz guevara

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Well this is not CK2 where a pretender gets spawned as a country on the map; there simply arent enough provinces to simulate such a detailed political thing. Thus the whole process is abstracted.

That's if you think of it just as a pretender revolt. Saint Sava got cut short by the Ottomans, but it existed for hundreds of years previously as Hum, and was only a few decades previously incorporated into Bosnia.