1419: Starting Bailiffs

[unmerged(31425)]

I won't say it's unwanted. How much difference does it make anyway? I'm not able now to look up the tech data.

I don't know. But it will mamke europeans get tech faster.

Where is Infra start data stored? Individual scenario files, I guess?

C:\Program Files\Strategy First\Europa Universalis II\AGCEEP\Scenarios\1419

In each individual country's files. Also their starting ducats are there too.

 

[unmerged(29774)]

I would propose that all countries that start with the tech needed (Infra level = 1) should start out with a tax collector in their capital, and possibly in any COT that they own.

Late,
Jester

Perhaps you should add in something like: Centralization = 5 ... or some other number that makes sense, as well as Infra level = 1. Then a country would get starting bailiffs in their capital and COT's.

Yes/No?

 

[EUnderhill]

The thing to remember with the starting cash is that it is still at the same levels as before the tax collectors were made a greater necessity. I would leave the TCs out, but give 35d per owned core to all nations, to help make up the difference.

 

[Zander]

Current 1419 set-up

Infra 2:
GEN: Genoa
VEN: Venice

Infra 1:
ALB: Albania
ARG: Aragon
ATH: Athens
AZT: Aztecs
BAY: Bavaria
BOH: Bohemia
BOS: Bosnia
HAU: Brabant
BRE: Bremen
BUR: Burgundy
BYZ: Byzantine Empire
CAS: Castile
CHM: Chimu
KOL: Cologne
DAN: Denmark
ENG: England
PAR: Estense
U17: Foix
FRI: Friesland
GEL: Geldre
GRA: Granada
HAN: Hannover
ARA: Hedjaz
HEL: Helvetia
HES: Hessen
SHL: Holstein
HUN: Hungary
HYD: Hyderabad
INC: Inca Empire
EIR: Ireland
KLE: Kleves
KNI: Knights
LIV: Livonian Order
LOR: Lorraine
LUX: Luxembourg
MEC: Mecklemburg
U16: Meiben
MLO: Milan
MOL: Moldavia
SPR: Morea
MUN: Munster
MYS: Mysore
NAP: Naples
NAV: Navarra
NOR: Norway
SUD: Nubia
OLD: Oldenburg
OMA: Oman
PFA: Palatinate
PAP: Papal States
POM: Pommerania
POR: Portugal
PSK: Pskov
SAC: Saxony
SAV: Savoy
SCO: Scotland
SER: Serbia
TAU: Shan
STT: Sttetin
LAT: Teutonic Knights
XHO: Tlemcen
TUN: Tunis
VIJ: Vijayanagar
WLS: Wales (fantasy only)
WAL: Wallachia
WUR: Wurtemburg
ADE: Yemen

Infra 0:
CYR: Adal
AKK: Ak Koyunlu
ARK: Arakan
ASH: Ashanti
ATJ: Atjeh
HAB: Austria
AYU: Ayutthaya
U27: Banjar
BGL: Bengal
BEN: Benin
BRA: Brandenburg
BRI: Brittany
BEI: Brunei
MYA: Burma
U06: Butung
CAM: Cambodia
CAN: Candar
CHG: Chagatai
CHA: Champa
DAK: Champassak
CHI: China
DAH: Dahomey
DAU: Dauphine
DLH: Delhi
MAM: Egypt
ETH: Ethiopia
FRA: France
GEO: Georgia
TEK: Ghazi
STE: Golden Horde
GUJ: Gujarat
U08: Hausa
IRA: Iraq
KAR: Karaman
ZAN: Kilwa
KON: Kongo
KOR: Korea
MAI: Lanka
KHM: Lanna
AMI: Lanxang
LIT: Lithuania
LUA: Luang Prabang
MAG: Luwu
MKS: Makassar
MLC: Malacca
MAL: Mali
MCH: Manchu
ARM: Malindi
MIN: Masovia
MTR: Mataram
HSA: Mazandaran
DEL: Mogadishu
ZUL: Mombasa
PEG: Mon
ASS: Mongolia
AUV: Moro
MOR: Morocco
UU07: Mossi
MOS: Muscovy
NVG: Novgorod
ORI: Orissa
TUR: Ottoman Empire
09: Oyo
U15: Palembang
POL: Poland
PRO: Provence
QAR: Qara Koyunlu
JAI: Rajputana
RYA: Ryazan
U04: Shirvan
SIB: Sibir
SON: Songhai
PRM: Styria
SWE: Sweden
U05: Ternate
KAL: Theodoro
TIB: Tibet
TIM: Timurid Empire
TYR: Tirol
TRE: Trebizond
TVE: Tver
UZB: Uzbek Khanate
VIE: Vientiane

 

[Zander]

The thing to remember with the starting cash is that it is still at the same levels as before the tax collectors were made a greater necessity.

Good point.

I would leave the TCs out, but give 35d per owned core to all nations, to help make up the difference.

Not a bad idea. But wouldn't it make more sense (in and out-of-game) for nations to start with an infrastructure appropriate to their technology, and without a huge stack of money, rather than starting with a huge stack of money, and suddenly creating an infrastructure in 1419? (Or, worse, in 1520?)

 

[unmerged(7597)]

My Infra wish list

Thank you Zander for posting that list – quite a few surprises there! No doubt some of these ratings were the result of all kinds of careful consideration, so at the risk of slaughtering anyone’s sacred cow, I’m going to give my own view of what these ratings should be, with brief explanatory remarks where possible. My working definitions are as follows:

*Infra 2: Highly sophisticated & uniform gov’t financial machinery capable of regular revenue, accountancy & public deficit, with access to considerable local private capital.
*Infra 1: Sophistication at the level of typical late-medieval western European gov’ts (see note 1) capable as per Infra 2, but without access to local capital.
*Infra 0: Gov’t relies on irregular primarily feudal, private, or tributary revenue without capability per Infra 1.

Note 1: Particularly as described in R. W. Kaeuper, Bankers to the Crown: The Riccardi of Lucca and Edward I (1973) & J. B. Henneman, Royal Taxation in Fourteenth Century France: the development of war financing, 1322-56 (1971)

Infra Tech Chart (for reference)

Level Av. Date Efficiency Effect
0 1419 20 Allows Colonists
1 1425 25 Allows Tax Collectors
2 1450 30 Allows Fine Arts Acedemies

Legend
Average Date - Used to calculate investment costs including adjustments for being
behind (neighbor bonus) and adjustments if you are too far ahead.
Efficiency - Percentage of toll income received.
Effect - Commentary.

Infra 2:
BRE: Bremen (access to Hansa banking)
BUR: Burgundy (Flemish banks)
KOL: Cologne (Hansa banks)
FLA: Flanders (Flemish banks)
TOS: Florence (apparently left off the list, but clearly belongs w/Gen & Ven)
GEN: Genoa
VEN: Venice

Infra 1:
HAB: Austria
ARG: Aragon
ATH: Athens (?)
BAY: Bavaria
BOH: Bohemia
HAU: Brabant
BRA: Brandenburg
BRI: Brittany
BYZ: Byzantine Empire
CAS: Castile
DAU: Dauphine
DAN: Denmark
ENG: England
PAR: Estense
U17: Foix
FRA: France
FRI: Friesland
GEL: Geldre
GRA: Granada
HAN: Hannover
HES: Hessen
SHL: Holstein
HUN: Hungary
KLE: Kleves
KNI: Knights
LIV: Livonian Order
LOR: Lorraine
LUX: Luxembourg
MEC: Mecklemburg
U16: Meiben
MLO: Milan
MOL: Moldavia
SPR: Morea
MUN: Munster
NAP: Naples
NAV: Navarra
NOR: Norway (?)
OLD: Oldenburg
TUR: Ottoman Empire (regular tax system inherited from Byzantines?)
PFA: Palatinate
PAP: Papal States
POM: Pommerania
POR: Portugal
PRO: Provence
SAV: Savoy
SAC: Saxony
SCO: Scotland
STT: Stettin
PRM: Styria
SWE: Sweden (?)
LAT: Teutonic Knights
TYR: Tirol
TRE: Trebizond
TUN: Tunis
WUR: Wurtemburg

Infra 0:
ALB: Albania (tributary finances?)
AZT: Aztecs
BOS: Bosnia
CHM: Chimu
ARA: Hedjaz
HEL: Helvetia (given confederal system, did it have a central financial operation?)
HYD: Hyderabad (?)
INC: Inca Empire (?)
EIR: Ireland (no central gov’t)
MYS: Mysore (?)
SUD: Nubia
OMA: Oman (?)
PSK: Pskov (?)
SER: Serbia
TAU: Shan (?)
XHO: Tlemcen (?)
VIJ: Vijayanagar (?)
WLS: Wales (fantasy only)
WAL: Wallachia
ADE: Yemen
CYR: Adal
AKK: Ak Koyunlu
ARK: Arakan
ASH: Ashanti
ATJ: Atjeh
AYU: Ayutthaya
U27: Banjar
BGL: Bengal
BEN: Benin
BEI: Brunei
MYA: Burma
U06: Butung
CAM: Cambodia
CAN: Candar
CHG: Chagatai
CHA: Champa
DAK: Champassak
CHI: China
DAH: Dahomey
DLH: Delhi (?)
MAM: Egypt
ETH: Ethiopia
GEO: Georgia
TEK: Ghazi
STE: Golden Horde
GUJ: Gujarat
U08: Hausa
IRA: Iraq
KAR: Karaman
ZAN: Kilwa
KON: Kongo
KOR: Korea
MAI: Lanka
KHM: Lanna
AMI: Lanxang
LIT: Lithuania
LUA: Luang Prabang
MAG: Luwu
MKS: Makassar
MLC: Malacca
MAL: Mali
MCH: Manchu
ARM: Malindi
MIN: Masovia
MTR: Mataram
HSA: Mazandaran
DEL: Mogadishu
ZUL: Mombasa
PEG: Mon
ASS: Mongolia
AUV: Moro
MOR: Morocco
UU07: Mossi
MOS: Muscovy
NVG: Novgorod
ORI: Orissa
09: Oyo
U15: Palembang
POL: Poland
QAR: Qara Koyunlu
JAI: Rajputana
RYA: Ryazan
U04: Shirvan
SIB: Sibir
SON: Songhai
U05: Ternate
KAL: Theodoro
TIB: Tibet
TIM: Timurid Empire
TVE: Tver
UZB: Uzbek Khanate
VIE: Vientiane

 

[unmerged(2456)]

The following should be changed:
CHI: 2+
HYD: .75
DLH: 1

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Absolutely - in which case we need a list of recently-conquered or ceded provinces as of 1 Jan 1419:

1. Normandy

I'd put Marche and possibly Roma in this group as the Papacy had basically no control over Marche, and very little over Roma. The Colonna had some control and the Pope (Nicholas V?) was a Colonna, but still.

Emilia probably meets this requirement too in that Filipo Maria Visconti established control over Parma itself in 1420.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

This has been discussed many times in many different threads but I have never seen anyhting doen with it.

What countries should start with Bailiiffs in 1419? this would represent an advanced form of taxation and the economic ability that goes with it.

All Italian City States are a definite possibility.

Late,
Jester

China and korea. but dont want to make them too powerful yet.

 

[Jester]

So does anyone object to giving every country that starts with the prerequisite Infrastructure at least a bailiff in their capital province ?

Late,
Jester

 

[Jester]

OK, all countries starting with the prerequisite infrastructure should start with tax collectors in their capital province in the next patch.

Late,
Jester

 

[unmerged(17856)]

I'll lend support to Count Six and Zander. If AI's build tax collectors ASAP, and I've seen 'em do it, then there isn't much point in avoiding the issue.

And don't tax collectors dissapear in a province that is seceded during peace?

In which case we don't have to worry about Normandy, because ENG doesn't own Normandy at gamestart, she only controls it.

Meath should not start with one. Meath yielded little by way of taxing, was a restricted territory, and in-game will only increase the revolts in Meath for an AI ENG that should be able to hold onto Meath throughout the game.

 

[Jester]

I'll lend support to Count Six and Zander. If AI's build tax collectors ASAP, and I've seen 'em do it, then there isn't much point in avoiding the issue.

And don't tax collectors dissapear in a province that is seceded during peace?

In which case we don't have to worry about Normandy, because ENG doesn't own Normandy at gamestart, she only controls it.

Meath should not start with one. Meath yielded little by way of taxing, was a restricted territory, and in-game will only increase the revolts in Meath for an AI ENG that should be able to hold onto Meath throughout the game.

The next patch will include a starting Tax collector in the capital of every country that starts with the necessary tech. I am not really messing with tax collectors anywhere else as deciding where they should go and to who sounds like a lot fo work and I don't have the time for it. Also adding too many tax collectors at the start can screw up the balance between countries.

Late,
Jester

 

[Norrefeldt]

Good list Zander!

*Infra 2: Highly sophisticated & uniform gov’t financial machinery capable of regular revenue, accountancy & public deficit, with access to considerable local private capital.
*Infra 1: Sophistication at the level of typical late-medieval western European gov’ts (see note 1) capable as per Infra 2, but without access to local capital.
*Infra 0: Gov’t relies on irregular primarily feudal, private, or tributary revenue without capability per Infra 1.

There ought to be more that go into infrastucture, since we have so few parameters to work with. The quality of the legal system and level of corruption, the ability of the educational system to educate all those officals needed for the bureaucracy, the advancement of the agricultural system affects a lot how much income the state can get, along with all kinds of technologies and inventions. Since there is no other parameter that affect income, infrastucture should be used for everything that increase production. For all those things the infrastructure is used when it comes to describing the effects in events we have today.