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Jester

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This has been discussed many times in many different threads but I have never seen anyhting doen with it.

What countries should start with Bailiiffs in 1419? this would represent an advanced form of taxation and the economic ability that goes with it.

All Italian City States are a definite possibility.

Late,
Jester
 

Zander

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Given that the AI now places tax collectors as its first priority, and most players do the same, this is essentially equivalent to starting money. I'd argue that most every country ought to start with them, in fact, except for any we specifically want to have to spend the first 10 years doing nothing but working towards tax collectors.
 

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Zander said:
Given that the AI now places tax collectors as its first priority, and most players do the same, this is essentially equivalent to starting money. I'd argue that most every country ought to start with them, in fact, except for any we specifically want to have to spend the first 10 years doing nothing but working towards tax collectors.
Well...i don't think every city should start with them.

Every capital should, unless there is a good reason not to though.
 

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perhaps the capital of every nation that starts with the tech to build one should start with it in their capital.

Late,
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Zander

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Jinnai said:
Well...i don't think every city should start with them.

I'm curious: why not? I know it hasn't been done before, but I just don't see the point in making every nation, AI or human, spend their first year and initial money (or more than a year, in some cases) TCing everything. Out-of-game, all it does is delay gameplay, and in-game, it's odd to think that all these nations just started taxing seriously in 1419.
 

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Zandar said:
I'm curious: why not? I know it hasn't been done before, but I just don't see the point in making every nation, AI or human, spend their first year and initial money (or more than a year, in some cases) TCing everything. Out-of-game, all it does is delay gameplay, and in-game, it's odd to think that all these nations just started taxing seriously in 1419.
Norrefeldt said:
It wouldn't be very historical. There was a difference on how well taxes was collected.
Not only that, but not every place has the technology for them and we're also givng everyone a free pass at tons of extra money.
 

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All capitals certainly (that have the tech required of course)

How about all COT's that fulfil the same criteria? I think it is especially important to let the 1 province germans start with a bailiff....
 

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Norrefeldt said:
It wouldn't be very historical. There was a difference on how well taxes was collected.
The northern Italians should have it though.

Not very historical? Most of the countries (that have Infra 1) will have TCs by 1420 anyway. How is it more historical to have all these countries suddenly develop tax infrastructures in 1419?
If you really feel that only the Italians knew how to tax, then Infra 1 should be removed from all the other nations.

Jinnai said:
Not only that, but not every place has the technology for them and we're also givng everyone a free pass at tons of extra money.

It's an open question, IMHO, whether non-Exotic nations without Infra 1 should start with TCs. I wouldn't complain too much if the decision was "no". I just think it's silly to make every nation spend their first year building tax collectors: presumably, if they could have, they would have done it before 1419.

Though I would note that denying TCs to nations is just giving the human player another unneeded advantage. Any human player (even an exotic Infra 0 player) will get TCs as fast as possible. Since the AI won't focus on Infra to the same degree, it will lag behind. How does that help the game?
 

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Why is everyone required to build TCs in every vanilla scenario? If the consensus that making all countries do that is just a silly design decision then I'm fine with giving TCs across the board (with the exception of newly conquered territories of course). If they aren't handed out across the board then it ought to have something to do with the sophisitication of the tax collection of the individual states.

I'd also note that there are some starting provinces where players might not want to build TCs. (non-state religion and non-state culture being some examples).
 

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Isaac Brock said:
Why is everyone required to build TCs in every vanilla scenario? If the consensus that making all countries do that is just a silly design decision then I'm fine with giving TCs across the board (with the exception of newly conquered territories of course).

I'm essentially of the opinion that it is, though I'd replace "silly design decision", with "design decision that no longer makes sense under the patched rules". Now that building TCs is the first priority for every sensible nation (which was not the case in 1.00), it makes no sense for most nations to be without them.


If they aren't handed out across the board then it ought to have something to do with the sophisitication of the tax collection of the individual states.

Sure, but unless you expand that by lowering those nations to Infra 0, all you're doing is deducting 50 gold per province and a year's worth of time from them. Even if you lower them to Infra 0, I'd argue you're just hurting them by some more years and some inflation: again, every nation's first priority is usually to build TCs (under the current patch).
In some cases, it might be desirable to injure a nation in this fashion. And with isolated Exotics, the delay in achieving infra 1 might be long enough that you want to take advantage of the ability to keep them poor for all that time. For most other nations, I'd argue again that it only hurts the AI relative to the player.


I'd also note that there are some starting provinces where players might not want to build TCs. (non-state religion and non-state culture being some examples).

I can't think of any other examples. However, I will readily grant the point that a player (especially from a religion with a -tax modifer) might not want to TC provinces that were both wrong-religion and wrong-culture. Leaving such provinces out of any TC-everything plan seems quite sensible.
 

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Well reguardless of whether its good or not, it does 2 things...it frees up 50 gold for humans to start building armies and going to war insitially.

But also there are places where tax collection wasn't that good and the fact there is little tax there is imo better because its how it should be. If humans want to add tax collectors, that's their choice of course, but my main point is that the tax systems for most countries in europe and elsewhere did not have the ability to do that. I mean the timurid empire certainly did build the infrastructure that would allow for tax collectors in every province...that's why they fell!
 

Jester

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I would propose that all countries that start with the tech needed (Infra level = 1) should start out with a tax collector in their capital, and possibly in any COT that they own.

Late,
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Jester said:
I would propose that all countries that start with the tech needed (Infra level = 1) should start out with a tax collector in their capital, and possibly in any COT that they own.
And maybe major world cities....at this time though it should only be a handful around the world.
 

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Jinnai said:
the tax systems for most countries in europe and elsewhere did not have the ability to do that. I mean the timurid empire certainly did build the infrastructure that would allow for tax collectors in every province...that's why they fell!

I'd say pretty much every w. & central European country I know anything about had some system producing a reliable, steady state revenue above and beyond purely the ruler's domain revenue by the early 15th c. - or the early 14th c., for that matter.

It seems like a "silly design decision" to me, and I'm in favor of giving all non-Exotics TC to start, unless there are specific cases where its clear the state was not taxing its population.
 

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Recent conquests should absolutely be excluded.
 

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Giving most europeans baliffs at start will give them an even bigger tech lead. Is this wanted?
 

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I would have no problem with treating starting TCs the same as "starting money" - and thus deducting 50 gold from the nation per TC added. My objection is specifically to the silliness of these tax networks suddenly springing up in the 1419-1420 window.
It's possible that starting Infra assignments (whether nations are 0 or 1) should be examined at the same time. I haven't particularly looked at these.
 

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Isaac Brock said:
Recent conquests should absolutely be excluded.

Absolutely - in which case we need a list of recently-conquered or ceded provinces as of 1 Jan 1419:

1. Normandy

IDLF said:
Giving most europeans baliffs at start will give them an even bigger tech lead. Is this wanted?

I won't say it's unwanted. How much difference does it make anyway? I'm not able now to look up the tech data.

Zander said:
I would have no problem with treating starting TCs the same as "starting money" - and thus deducting 50 gold from the nation per TC added. My objection is specifically to the silliness of these tax networks suddenly springing up in the 1419-1420 window.
It's possible that starting Infra assignments (whether nations are 0 or 1) should be examined at the same time. I haven't particularly looked at these.

I have no objection against deducting 50 either - and yes, it is silly to see all those baliffs jumping up out of nowhere all at once.

Where is Infra start data stored? Individual scenario files, I guess?