10Cvs/10Cls Vs 10CVs/10Cls: What happens?

[BattleMoose]

So, a very large weakness from HOI3 was the naval combat system, where carrier battles were unspectacular and very reliably, completely indecisive When comparable CV fleets fought each other, generally nothing would sink, even with days after going at each other.

So far, from the development diaries and play throughs, very little has been shown of how the naval system actually works in practice.

So, simple question, in HOI4, when 10CVs/10Cls go up against 10CVs/10CLS, what happens?

It would be great if the developers could do a quick 5 minute video of this exact scenario.

 

[Maizel]

So, a very large weakness from HOI3 was the naval combat system, where carrier battles were unspectacular and very reliably, completely indecisive When comparable CV fleets fought each other, generally nothing would sink, even with days after going at each other.

So far, from the development diaries and play throughs, very little has been shown of how the naval system actually works in practice.

So, simple question, in HOI4, when 10CVs/10Cls go up against 10CVs/10CLS, what happens?

It would be great if the developers could do a quick 5 minute video of this exact scenario.

Many of the decisive battles in the pacific were not due things I feel should make them decisive in essence,.

Japen often lost because of Bad tactics, good intelligence by the US, Obsolescence of equipment, bad damage control, numerical inferiority and lack of training of aircrews.

I think carrier battles could theoretically turn out to be very different. Full out carrier warfare has only really occurred between two two nations, in one war in the history of warfare. It is not a great sample size.

I just disagree that Carrier based warfare will always be decisive.

 

[BattleMoose]

I just disagree that Carrier based warfare will always be decisive.

It has always been decisive, or at least, heavy casualties, in carriers.

 

[Maizel]

It has always been decisive, or at least, heavy casualties, in carriers.

Yes it has been. Well, the battles haven;t even always been decisive. Some battles were decisive in a hindsight, strategic point of few, but nowhere near the one sided affairs later battles of the Pacific war were.

 

[BattleMoose]

Well, the battles haven;t even always been decisive. Some battles were decisive in a hindsight, strategic point of few, but nowhere near the one sided affairs later battles of the Pacific war were.

I literally have no idea what you are on about, some history.

Coral Sea and Midway, were the early battles.
Coral Sea: Of 5 Carriers involved, 2 sank, 1 damaged.
Midway: Of 7 Carriers involved, FIVE SANK. That's a 71% casualty rate for carriers.

EDIT: Not sure how anyone could disagree with what is essentially a list of facts...

 

[Maizel]

I literally have no idea what you are on about, some history.

Coral Sea and Midway, were the early battles.
Coral Sea: Of 5 Carriers involved, 2 sank, 1 damaged.
Midway: Of 7 Carriers involved, FIVE SANK. That's a 71% casualty rate for carriers.

And my point was, at Midway the allied codebreakers gave Nimitz pretty much a clear cut picture of what the japansese positions were going to be.

Just because most of the few carrier battles in history were decisive, does not mean every hypothetical one shóúld be.

 

[wright1331]

So, a very large weakness from HOI3 was the naval combat system, where carrier battles were unspectacular and very reliably, completely indecisive When comparable CV fleets fought each other, generally nothing would sink, even with days after going at each other.

So far, from the development diaries and play throughs, very little has been shown of how the naval system actually works in practice.

So, simple question, in HOI4, when 10CVs/10Cls go up against 10CVs/10CLS, what happens?

It would be great if the developers could do a quick 5 minute video of this exact scenario.

Yes, HOI has always sucked at this and made no notice that they have made progress.... oddly enough

 

[BattleMoose]

And my point was, at Midway the allied codebreakers gave Nimitz pretty much a clear cut picture of what the japansese positions were going to be.

There were very many factors that influenced the outcome of the battle and how it was fought. The USN also suffered from a number of serious disadvantages too, but that's not really what this topic is supposed to be about. Regardless, based on the technology and the forces involved, it was always going to be a very bloody battle.

Just because most of the few carrier battles in history were decisive, does not mean every hypothetical one shóúld be.

Nor am I asking them to always be decisive. Just that they should not always be indecisive.

###

Once in a while, if at least a carrier sinks during a balanced CV/CV battle, I would be happy(ish).

 

[porta80]

Belongs to the aircraft setup of your carriers.

 

[panzerzombie]

There was the concept of critical hits in HOI3 - which should dramatically damage ships - but it seems as if it didn´t work out so well, at least as described with CVs. I hope they got it running now, in HOI4 the reliability is governing critical hits ( none of the DDs stated details about it though ).
The battle example of midway showed 1 CV on each side sinking however.

HOI3 wiki: modifiers
Damage

• The amount of damage is determined by the firing Sea Attack value, multiplied by the firing Ship’s Strength (i.e. reduced by Strength losses), and then divided by the target’s Hull value.
• There is also a chance of a Critical Hit, which could quickly and dramatically damage a Ship’s Organisation or Strength. Default Critical Hit chance is 10% and default damage multiplier is 10x (defined in defines.lua file).

Stacking Penalty
A fleet has a 4% penalty to Positioning per combined Hull above 10. This penalty not only makes it harder for a fleet to hit the enemy, but also increases the chances of friendly fire.

Surprise Attack
Submarines and Naval Bombers have a chance of surprising the enemy.

• Naval Bombers: 25% chance, +75 attack
• Submarines: 50% chance, +300% attack

The surprise effect lasts three hours.

 

[BattleMoose]

There it is, that actually looks reasonable, thanks.

 

[Bap]

Damage

• The amount of damage is determined by the firing Sea Attack value, multiplied by the firing Ship’s Strength (i.e. reduced by Strength losses), and then divided by the target’s Hull value.

I am pretty sure that positioning acts as a multiplier to damage as well.

Surprise Attack
Submarines and Naval Bombers have a chance of surprising the enemy.

• Naval Bombers: 25% chance, +75 attack
• Submarines: 50% chance, +300% attack

Shouldn`t CAG be able to surprise the enemy too?

 

[BattleMoose]

Shouldn`t CAG be able to surprise the enemy too?

Not really, except for the very start of the war, the major capital ships had radar and would always get some warning. CTF, also would have CAP flying constantly so that should also give warning. That naval bombers can get surprise does seem a bit odd to me, maybe its only against submarines?

The surprise mechanic that was used in HOI3, never worked. Will have to see if they managed to make it work in HOI4.

I think it was HOI2 where the most effective naval task forces were doomstacks of submarines. And in HOI3, the subs would get the surprise buff, but wouldn't ever be in range for it to be, usable.

 

[Lacerion]

An excellent question from HoI3 battle hardened veteran! As much as I would love to see devs bringing some light into this question, I am afraid that it will be up to us to find out. From the little I observed during streams and diaries the questions asked and answered are rather basic in nature. Mainstream I guess I just hope that combat interface will be designed in such way, that acting modifiers will be easy to observe for those who are interested in details! Dunno how much of our HoI2/3 experience could be applied here.

 

[fabius]

There was the concept of critical hits in HOI3 - which should dramatically damage ships - but it seems as if it didn´t work out so well, at least as described with CVs. I hope they got it running now, in HOI4 the reliability is governing critical hits ( none of the DDs stated details about it though ).
The battle example of midway showed 1 CV on each side sinking however.

HOI3 wiki: modifiers
Damage

• The amount of damage is determined by the firing Sea Attack value, multiplied by the firing Ship’s Strength (i.e. reduced by Strength losses), and then divided by the target’s Hull value.
• There is also a chance of a Critical Hit, which could quickly and dramatically damage a Ship’s Organisation or Strength. Default Critical Hit chance is 10% and default damage multiplier is 10x (defined in defines.lua file).

Stacking Penalty
A fleet has a 4% penalty to Positioning per combined Hull above 10. This penalty not only makes it harder for a fleet to hit the enemy, but also increases the chances of friendly fire.

Surprise Attack
Submarines and Naval Bombers have a chance of surprising the enemy.

• Naval Bombers: 25% chance, +75 attack
• Submarines: 50% chance, +300% attack

The surprise effect lasts three hours.

I love the look of the new navy battle screen. And have hopes carrier warfare is improved. My thoughts are that with carriers carrying specific aircraft and the whole engagement range thing it should be better than previous Hoi.

 

[Occlude]

I literally have no idea what you are on about, some history.

Coral Sea and Midway, were the early battles.
Coral Sea: Of 5 Carriers involved, 2 sank, 1 damaged.
Midway: Of 7 Carriers involved, FIVE SANK. That's a 71% casualty rate for carriers.

EDIT: Not sure how anyone could disagree with what is essentially a list of facts...

It's a list of numbers, but it's a very small list of numbers. Two events could be an anomaly, for all we know; it's going to take WWIII for us to have a shot at knowing what happens when two equal carrier fleets fight each other.