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sayagh

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Last edited:

Brownbeard

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i know all local sources and they're legit.

the chronicle of the priest of duklja(ljetopis popa dukljanina) is an authentic manuscript from that era. it focuses mainly on the power struggle betwen the three catholic bishoprics(split, ragusa and bar), but also describes the lands and politics of the era. legit.

fra dominik mandic is the most important croatian 20.ct historian

generaly, the zeta question is very volatile because it also includes the question of existance of the montenegro nation. this involves todays politics, since there is a strong lobby in serbia and quite a few montenegrin who deny the existence of montenegro nation(ie. momir bulatović their former president and the likes) and define them as serbs... also the conflict between the orthodox churches of montenegro and serbia(which tried to destroy the first in 20.ct and still denies its existance...)... some things never change in the balkans...
 

sayagh

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According to this site then :

(Uknown Name) Dukljanina (? - ?)
*Predimir Dukljanina (? -930) married to Prechovla of Rashka (? - 954)
**Chlavimir Dukljanina(? - 971)
***Petrislav Dukljanina(958 - ?)
****Jovan Vladimir Dukljanina(978 - 1016) married to Teodora Kosara Kometopoulos (daughter of Samuil, Tsar of Bulgaria)
*****Neda Dukljanina (? - ?)
***Dragimir Dukljanina(960 - 1018) married to (U. N.) of Srpsko Zagorje
****Stefan Vojislav Dukljanina(992 -1052)
*****Mihailo Vojislavic (1015 - 1082) (Prince of Zeta/Serbia count of Zeta) married to Neda Dukljanina (see above)
******Vladimir (? )
******Konstantin Bodin (1034) (A claim on the title of Tsar of Bulgaria ?)
*****Mihailo Vojislavic married to (U. N.) of Byzantium
******Petrislav of Rashka (1034 - 1081) (zupan (count) of Rashka)
*******Vukan (1054 )
*******Marko Vukanovic ( 1056 )

I'll try to mod myself all this guys
 

Arkady

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Hi, I'm correcting Kingdom of Poland and found that mother of Miezsko II Lambert (758) and Jadwiga (759) is incorrectly Judith of Hungary (463) but my sources mention as 3rd wife of Boleslaw I the Brave (756) and mother of those two character unknown daughter of some Serbian Chieftan...

Marriage date 987, her name is Emnilde (sp?) and chieftan is Dobromir ...

Have you reference on this ?
 

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lužički srbi, a west slavic tribe on the oder, today extinct

different from balkan serbs(although serbs migrated from that region to the balkans)
 

sayagh

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Brownbeard said:
lužički srbi, a west slavic tribe on the oder, today extinct

different from balkan serbs(although serbs migrated from that region to the balkans)

Are they really extinct, or did they assimilated ?
 

Brownbeard

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they were culturally asimilated by germans. their culture is extinct. i think the last remains of their culture/language dissapeared around wwii...(not really sure, might have been a LOT earlier, somehow this date popped into my head...)
 

sayagh

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Brownbeard said:
the chronicle of the priest of duklja(ljetopis popa dukljanina) is an authentic manuscript from that era. it focuses mainly on the power struggle betwen the three catholic bishoprics(split, ragusa and bar), but also describes the lands and politics of the era. legit.

I read this translation, but can some other translations be found on the web ?(In Serbo-croatian or in english)
 

Demetrios

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Brownbeard said:
they were culturally asimilated by germans. their culture is extinct. i think the last remains of their culture/language dissapeared around wwii...(not really sure, might have been a LOT earlier, somehow this date popped into my head...)

Nope. As Arkady has said, their language and culture still exist to this day in eastern Germany.
 

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another faulty historybook, damn...
 

sayagh

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What do you think of this (do someone have more informations) ?



zeta.jpg
 

unmerged(27913)

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Brownbeard said:
although serbs migrated from that region to the balkans

Thats what some claim. There are no anthropological or any other evidence that may point to that. We don't know from where Serbs came. The only thing Serbs and Sorbs have in common is a similar name. Except that their customs, religion and every other aspect of their life is totatlly different than Serbs.
 

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some say the serbs migrated from the oder, some say they're from volga... but since the byzantines invited them along with croats, oder seems more likely...

isn't there anything more about it in 'de administrando imperio'?
 

sayagh

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Another question, what was the religion of the rulers of Zeta and Djukla ?
I read somwhere that it was a croatian catholic dinasty, and that the region of Zeta became Orthodox only with the rise of Rashka under the Nemanjic rule.
 

Brownbeard

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mihajlo I was catholic(and was crowned by the pope), all later were orthodox. them being croatian is questionable(but not impossible), but they were definitively not serbian. they were dioclean(red croatian at best), and in todays terms that is montenegrin, they are not descended from either serbs or croats but probably from slavs that migrated to balkans prior to croats and serbs...

the croatian origin theory comes from all the slavonic principalities from zahumlje to duklja being the remains of mythical red croatia from 7.ct which spanned from neretva to dyracchium... and lasted only a few decades, there is no historical evidence of red croatia... but those principalities had to come from somewhere...

here's a nice montenegrin page: http://www.montenegro.org.au/

there is a lot about montenegro culture, history and ethnogenesis and is not manipulated by serbian historians
 
Last edited:

sayagh

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Brownbeard said:
mihajlo I was catholic(and was crowned by the pope), all later were orthodox. them being croatian is questionable(but not impossible), but they were definitively not serbian. they were dioclean(red croatian at best), and in todays terms that is montenegrin, they are not descended from either serbs or croats but probably from slavs that migrated to balkans prior to croats and serbs...

the croatian origin theory comes from all the slavonic principalities from zahumlje to duklja being the remains of mythical red croatia from 7.ct which spanned from neretva to dyracchium... and lasted only a few decades, there is no historical evidence of red croatia... but those principalities had to come from somewhere...

So, Mihailo should be catholic and his sons orthodox ?
And Zeta should be catholic ?

here's a nice montenegrin page: http://www.montenegro.org.au/

there is a lot about montenegro culture, history and ethnogenesis and is not manipulated by serbian historians

thanks :)
 

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kingdom should be catholic, but province orthodox and the kingdom will become orthodox as soon as his son bodin inherits. this way it will be historicaly correct.
 

sayagh

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I finally found some times to mod, here are all the changes I have made so far :




Code:
	#########################################
	#		Changes			#
	#########################################

***scenario_dynasties.inc***

dynasty = {
	id = { type = 12 id = 111000 } # feel free to change this id's
	name = "Vojislaveljic"
}
dynasty = {
	id = { type = 12 id = 111001 }
	name = "Dukljanin"
}
dynasty = {
	id = { type = 12 id = 111002 }
	name = "Kometopulos"
}

****************************




***scenario_relations.inc***

marrige = {
        primary = { type = 10 id = 500202 }
        secondary = { type = 10 id = 500204 }
        startdate = { year = 998 month = january day = 1 }
} 

marrige = {
        primary = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
        secondary = { type = 10 id = 500206 }
        startdate = { year = 1026 month = january day = 1 }
} 

marrige = {
        primary = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
        secondary = { type = 10 id = 500207 }
        startdate = { year = 1052 month = january day = 1 }
} 

*****************************




***scenario_carachters.inc***

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500200 }
	name = "Hvalimir II"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111001 }
	country = DSER
	religion = catholic
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 935 month = january day = 1 } # Fantaisist birth date
	deathdate = { year = 971 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "03010812000001"
	attributes = {
		martial = 5
		diplomacy = 7
		intrigue = 6
		stewardship = 6
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500201 }
	name = "Petrislav"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111001 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500200 }
	country = DSER
	religion = catholic	
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 958 month = january day = 1 }
	deathdate = { year = 990 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "02020802000003"
	attributes = {
		martial = 6
		diplomacy = 8
		intrigue = 6
		stewardship = 7
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500202 }
	name = "Dargimir"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111001 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500200 }
	country = DSER
	religion = catholic	
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 960 month = january day = 1 }
	deathdate = { year = 1034 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "04020011000001"
	attributes = {
		martial = 5
		diplomacy = 8
		intrigue = 7
		stewardship = 6
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500203 }
	name = "Vladimir"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111001 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500202 }
	country = DSER
	religion = catholic	
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 978 month = january day = 1 }
	deathdate = { year = 1016 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "04030401030001"
	attributes = {
		martial = 4
		diplomacy = 10
		intrigue = 3
		stewardship = 9
	}
	traits = {
		chaste = yes
		forgiving = yes
		honest = yes
		just = yes
		saint = yes
		wise = yes
		temperate = yes
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500204 }
	name = "Teodora Kosara"
	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111002 }
	country = DSER
	religion = orthodox
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 982 month = january day = 1 }
	deathdate = { year = 1025 month = january day = 1 } # Random
	dna = "04020402020002"
	attributes = {
		martial = 4
		diplomacy = 6
		intrigue = 7
		stewardship = 5
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500205 }
	name = "Vojislav"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111001 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500202 }
	country = DSER
	religion = catholic
	culture = southlavic
	birthdate = { year = 992 month = january day = 1}
	deathdate = { year = 1052 month = january day = 1}
	dna = "00040901020002"
	attributes = {
		martial = 7
		diplomacy = 7
		intrigue = 5
		stewardship = 7
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500206 }
	name = "Neda"
	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111001 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500203 }
	mother = { type = 10 id = 500204 }
	country = DSER
	religion = orthodox
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 1016 month = january day = 1}
	deathdate = { year = 1051 month = january day = 1}
	dna = "00040909020004"
	attributes = {
		martial = = 4
		diplomacy = 6
		intrigue = 5
		stewardship = 5
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
}

character = { # Mihailo's second wife, a relative of a Greek emperor.
	id = { type = 10 id = 500207 }
	name = "Zoe" # Random greek name
 	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100496 }
	country = DSER
	religion = orthodox
	culture = greek
	birthdate = { year = 1032 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "03010812040001"
	attributes = {
		martial = = 4
		diplomacy = 8
		intrigue = 5
		stewardship = 5
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
	traits = {
		generous = yes
		proven_accountant = yes
	}
}

character = { # Should be the ruler of Serbia in 1066
	id = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
	name = "Mihailo"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111000 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500205 }
	country = DSER
	religion = catholic
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 1030 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "03010211020001"
	attributes = {
		martial = 7
		diplomacy = 8
		intrigue = 7
		stewardship = 6
		health = 8
		fertility = 7
	}
	traits = {
		flamboyant_schemer = yes
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500209 }
	name = "Vladimir"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111000 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
	mother = { type = 10 id = 500206 }
	country = DSER
	religion = orthodox
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 1050 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "03020809120001"
	attributes = {
		martial = 5
		diplomacy = 5
		intrigue = 5
		stewardship = 6
		health = 7
		fertility = 5
	}
	traits = {
		naive_wirepuller = yes
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500210 }
	name = "Bodin"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 111000 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
	mother = { type = 10 id = 500206 }
	country = DSER
	religion = orthodox
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 1052 month = december day = 1 }
	dna = "03010001130001"
	attributes = {
		martial = 9
		diplomacy = 7
		intrigue = 5
		stewardship = 6
		health = 6
		fertility = 5
	}
	traits = {
		court_education = yes 
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 500211 }
	name = "Petrislav" 
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100502 } #of Rashka
#	father = { type = 10 id = 500208 } # Removed because that's the only way for Bodin ton inerhit
	mother = { type = 10 id = 500207 }
	country = C502 # Count of rashka
	religion = orthodox
	culture = southslavic
	birthdate = { year = 1053 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "01010406140201"
	attributes = {
		martial = 5
		diplomacy = 7
		intrigue = 5
		stewardship = 6
		health = 5
		fertility = 6
	}
	traits = {
		court_education = yes 
	}
}
Remove following :

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 20491 }
	name = "Dauid"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =101150 }
	country = BOSN
	religion = orthodox
	culture = greek
	score = { gold = 25 prestige = 100 piety = 100 }
	birthdate = { year = 1039 month = january day = 0 }
	dna = "20956998574094"
	attributes = {
		martial = 5
		diplomacy = 4
		intrigue = 8
		stewardship = 6
		health = 7
		fertility = 8
	}
	traits = {
		knowledged_tactician = yes
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 4491 }
	name = "Simonis"
	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =101150 }
	country = BOSN
	religion = orthodox
	culture = greek
	birthdate = { year = 1049 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "88552947590712"
	attributes = {
		martial = 4
		diplomacy = 6
		intrigue = 7
		stewardship = 6
		health = 5
		fertility = 6
	}
	traits = {
		court_education = yes 
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 20493 }
	name = "Georgios"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =101100 }
	country = C469
	religion = orthodox
	culture = greek
	score = { gold = 25 prestige = 100 piety = 100 }
	birthdate = { year = 1039 month = january day = 0 }
	dna = "46594577697644"
	attributes = {
		martial = 6
		diplomacy = 7
		intrigue = 6
		stewardship = 8
		health = 6
		fertility = 6
	}
	traits = {
		zealous = yes
		suspicious = yes
		scholarly_theologian = yes
	}
}
character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 4493 }
	name = "Semne"
	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =101100 }
	country = C469
	religion = orthodox
	culture = greek
	birthdate = { year = 1049 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "88552947590712"
	attributes = {
		martial = 4
		diplomacy = 6
		intrigue = 7
		stewardship = 8
		health = 5
		fertility = 6
	}
	traits = {
		court_education = yes 
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 20490 }
	name = "Philippos"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =101145 }
	country = DSER
	religion = orthodox
	culture = greek
	score = { gold = 25 prestige = 100 piety = 100 }
	birthdate = { year = 1039 month = january day = 0 }
	dna = "88552947590712"
	attributes = {
		martial = 8
		diplomacy = 8
		intrigue = 6
		stewardship = 6
		health = 5
		fertility = 8
	}
	traits = {
		honest = yes
		tough_soldier = yes
	}
}

character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 4490 }
	name = "Stammatike"
	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =101145 }
	country = DSER
	religion = orthodox
	culture = greek
	birthdate = { year = 1049 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "88552947590712"
	attributes = {
		martial = 4
		diplomacy = 6
		intrigue = 7
		stewardship = 6
		health = 5
		fertility = 6
	}
	traits = {
		court_education = yes 
	}
}

******************************


***scenario_titles.inc***

title = {
    tag = DSER
    tier = duchy
    liege = BYZA
    holder = {
        character = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
        startdate = {
            year = 1066
            month = january
            day = 0
        }
    }
}

title = {
    tag = C502 # Rashka vassal of Zeta (Serbia)
    tier = county
    liege = DSER
    holder = {
        character = { type = 10 id = 500211 }
        startdate = {
            year = 1066
            month = january
            day = 0
        }
    }
}

title = {
    tag = C503 # Hum as part of Rashka
    tier = county
    liege = DSER
    holder = {
        character = { type = 10 id = 500211 }
        startdate = {
            year = 1066
            month = january
            day = 0
        }
    }
}

title = {
    tag = C469 #Zeta
    tier = county
    liege = DSER
    holder = {
        character = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
        startdate = {
            year = 1066
            month = january
            day = 0
        }
    }
}

title = {
    tag = C468 #Ragusa
    tier = county
    holder = {
        character = { type = 10 id = 20494 }
        startdate = {
            year = 1066
            month = january
            day = 0
        }
    }
}


remove :

title = {
    tag = BOSN
    tier = duchy
    liege = BYZA
    holder = {
        character = { type = 10 id = 20491 }
        startdate = {
            year = 1066
            month = january
            day = 0
        }
    }
}
****************************




***scenario_countries.inc***

country = {
	tag = DSER
	form_of_goverment = feudal
	capital = 469

	ruler = {
		startdate = { year = 1066 month = january day = 1 }
		character = { type = 10 id = 500208 }
	}

	controlledprovinces = {
		469
	}
	laws = {
		semisalic_consanguinity_law = yes
		royal_preorgatory_law = yes
		regal_supremacy = yes
	}
}

country = {
	tag = C502
	form_of_goverment = feudal
	capital = 502

	ruler = {
		startdate = { year = 1066 month = january day = 1 }
		character = { type = 10 id = 500211 }
	}

	controlledprovinces = {
		502  503
	}
	laws = {
		semisalic_consanguinity_law = yes
		royal_preorgatory_law = yes
		regal_supremacy = yes
	}
}
country = {
	tag = C468
	form_of_goverment = republican
	capital = 468

	ruler = {
		startdate = { year = 1066 month = january day = 1 }
		character = { type = 10 id = 20494 }
	}

	controlledprovinces = {
		468
	}
	laws = {
		elective_law = yes
		royal_preorgatory_law = yes
		regal_supremacy = yes
	}
}

*********************************

***scenario.eug***

    DSER = { 
        gender = male 
        type = duchy 
        dna = "03010211020001" 
        title = { DSER C469  } 
        } 
    C502 = {
	gender = male
	type = county
	dna = "01010406140201"
	title = { C502 C503}
	}

Remove BOSN.

*****************

Also, Ragusa shouldn't be necessary to create the serbian kingdom (so does Hum).

Here are my suggestion for the income of some provinces :

Ragusa 8 (a prosperous merchant republic by that time)
Rashka 5 (as far as I know there were gold and other precious ressources).
Belgrade 6
Hum 2
Zeta 2


Of course, if you have any suggestion about what I've changed, submit them ! :)