1066 Ireland

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Well, the Duke of Meath was supposedly Mael Ui Mórdha (O'Moore). As mentioned above, he died in 1086. the Mórdhas came from Ulster and migrated south through Meath and even into Leinster. they should be able to spawn in leinster, osraige, mide, dublin, and ulaid. I believe his father's name was Gairbhith, and he died in 1061.

The person who could best be called Count of Osraige was Finn Ui Caollaidhe (O'Kealy), who died in 1098.

I think the Count of Mide was Conchobhar Ua Maoileachlainn (Mac Laughlin). who died in 1068 and succeeded by his son Domhnall of the same dynasty.

Damn your good! I'd like to think that I know my Irish history pretty well(at least for an American) but I wouldn't even know where to pull that information from. I tried to go a Google search for family histories and such but had no luck, and my history books wouldn't have had that info either. Good job!

 

[Solmyr]

Well, the Duke of Meath was supposedly Mael Ui Mórdha (O'Moore). As mentioned above, he died in 1086. the Mórdhas came from Ulster and migrated south through Meath and even into Leinster. they should be able to spawn in leinster, osraige, mide, dublin, and ulaid. I believe his father's name was Gairbhith, and he died in 1061.

The person who could best be called Count of Osraige was Finn Ui Caollaidhe (O'Kealy), who died in 1098.

I think the Count of Mide was Conchobhar Ua Maoileachlainn (Mac Laughlin). who died in 1068 and succeeded by his son Domhnall of the same dynasty.

Ok, so the ducal family of Meath can be safely removed and replaced with the O'Mores?

CK has Mide ruled by the bishop of Armagh, in 1066 Mael-Isu.

 

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Damn your good! I'd like to think that I know my Irish history pretty well(at least for an American) but I wouldn't even know where to pull that information from. I tried to go a Google search for family histories and such but had no luck, and my history books wouldn't have had that info either. Good job!

I get alot of Irish information from friends with Irish ancestry, such as Brian Bóruma and Captain Krunch (banned), the rest from books and the internet.

Myself, I'm a German-American. I just find Irish history to be fascinating. one of the oldest Kingdoms in Europe, IIRC.

Yeah, I see that he was Bishop of Armagh, however, as Armagh is in Ulster, having him rule Mide is confusing to say the least.

 

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Ok, so the ducal family of Meath can be safely removed and replaced with the O'Mores?

It's a pretty safe bet to say that there were no descendants of Brian Boru ruling Meath at this time. Mael Mórdha *was* King of Brega, which is the Dublin province.

 

[Solmyr]

Yeah, I see that he was Bishop of Armagh, however, as Armagh is in Ulster, having him rule Mide is confusing to say the least.

Unfortunately Ulster is all taken up by historic characters. Closest placeholder counties where the bishop could be moved are Tir Connail and Sligo. Would one of those fit for Armagh?

 

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Tir Connail should work fine, as that is, geographically speaking, where Armagh would be. (assuming that's the one in the center of Ulster, I honestly can't remember which Tir is which )

 

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I get alot of Irish information from friends with Irish ancestry, such as Brian Bóruma and Captain Krunch (banned), the rest from books and the internet.

Myself, I'm a German-American. I just find Irish history to be fascinating. one of the oldest Kingdoms in Europe, IIRC.

Yeah, I see that he was Bishop of Armagh, however, as Armagh is in Ulster, having him rule Mide is confusing to say the least.

I'm Irish-German-Polish American although I seem to feel closest to my German and Irish sides. Irish history is fascinating; if you ever get a chance to go there you really should. Check out the city of Maynooth where the old Fitzgerald castle is located. Everytime day I went to school I passed what had once been the political and cultural center of the Island It was a very "ozymadius" feeling to say the least.

On an unrelated note, I've always been fascinated by German history but have never been able to come up with any really good books about the Early German period; from the old tribes up until the High Middle Ages or so. I've read Bryce's "Holy Roman Empire" but thats all I could really find of quality; my local college library's selection on Germany is filled with WW2 books *sighs* I don't suppose you'd know any good on this period?

Also you should check out the new "Princes of Ireland" by Edward Rutherford; its a new book based on Dublin which follows in his established "London" style. Pretty good stuff; I'm more into the Revolutionary period of Ireland, from 1798-1925 but I also enjoy the older times, and Rutherford covers them well.

 

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Actually, the only thing harder to find about Dark Age germany is Dark Age Celts, as no one really knows much about them.

Just did some more looking up. Here's what is correct:

Aed (Aedh) O'Brien was in fact Duke of Connacht until death in 1067.
Toirrdelbach O'Brien was in fact Duke of Munster until death in 1086.
Diarmait with his son, Murchaid mac Dairmait (Duke of Western Isles in CK) did rule Leinster.
Culad did rule Ulster until 1071.

So, basically, the only things that need work are A: the rulers of vassal counties, B: the Ruler of Meath, C: information on parents, children, etc., and D: the possible inclusion of a Kingdom of Ireland title.

I think #2 has been solved, and I'm working on the first and third issues, but the fourth one is out of my hands.

 

[C.N.]

This link might be useful:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/oo/obrien01.htm

 

[Solmyr]

Tir Connail is in the northwest. Tir Eogain is just east of it (but prolly can't be touched as the count there is historical).

 

[Solmyr]

Could you suggest some stats and traits for the new Duke of Meath and his family?

 

[Solmyr]

Also, the Duke of Leinster has his wife (Dearbforghail) living in Munster (I think). His son, the Duke of the Western Isles, has most of his family in Deheubarth (I think). I assume these are errors?


Also, Deheubarth and Glamorgan are ruled by some Irish blokes. This however shows those places ruled by Welsh families (Glamorgan is under Morgannwg): http://www.hostkingdom.net/wales.html

 

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Oh.. well, putting Armagh there would be a bit of a stretch. in reality it is in the southern part of Tir Eoghann.

As for the Duke of Meath, he died on the battlefield.

His dynasty continued to fight the English until after the reign of Queen Elizabeth when they were slaughtered by the crown, and survivors shipped to Connacht.

I'd suggest giving him high martial points, and a male relative in Leinster with high steward rating (the Leinster Ui Mórdhas, as Kings of Laoighis, sat at the right hand of the King of Leinster, were entitled to a good cut at supper, and were usually his stewards)

As for direct kin, I only know his father was Gairbhith and ruled from 1048 to 1061.

 

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Also, the Duke of Leinster has his wife (Dearbforghail) living in Munster (I think). His son, the Duke of the Western Isles, has most of his family in Deheubarth (I think). I assume these are errors?


Also, Deheubarth and Glamorgan are ruled by some Irish blokes. This however shows those places ruled by Welsh families (Glamorgan is under Morgannwg): http://www.hostkingdom.net/wales.html

Yeah. Dearbforghail O' Brien shouldn't be in Munster, and yes, the Son of the Duke of Western Isles is in Deheubarth, and due to his high stats and elective law is the main successor of the two year old duke.

Therefore -- the Duke of Leinster's son is the Duke of Western Isles, whose son is next in line to be Duke of Deheubarth. the Duke of Western Isles, through his mother, has claims on Munster and Connacht.. it's an assassin's dream, really. stab some people and gain four duchies.

Naturally, this isn't real though. I don't remember reading about any 2 year old Welsh dukes from Laigin.

 

[Solmyr]

Most of the changes now added to v2.

About Deheubarth: Regnal chronologies lists Meredith III Meriadoc as king of Deheubarth and Cadogan Meriadoc as ruler of Glamorgan. I assume these can safely replace the "of Laigin" rulers that CK has in Deheubarth. Does anyone know how Meredith and Cadogan were related?

 

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I'll look into that.

 

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Welsh genealogy is really confusing.

From what I've been able to find,

Meredith III (Maredudd) was the son of Gruffydd ap Llewellyn, who was King of all Wales, and did rule Deheubarth as you thought.

Iestyn II ap Gwrgant supposedly ruled Glamorgan from 1081 until he died in 1093. Cadogan, who you listed before, was his son. I don't know when and if he ruled. It may indeed have been before his father.

 

[Solmyr]

Researched a bit more on this.

Apparently, Maredudd's father Gruffydd was son of Llywellyn ap Seisyll (Cecil) who was ruler of Gwynedd 1005-1023 and Deheubarth 1018-1023. Llywellyn got the lands via his marriage to Angharad, heiress of Deheubarth. Angharad later married Cynfyn ap Gwerystan, king of Powys, and their sons were Bleddyn and Rhiwallon.

Gruffydd was also ruler of Gwynedd until his death in 1063 in an attack by Harold and Tostig Godwineson. After that Maredudd was excluded from his throne by Bleddyn (duke of Gwynedd in CK) and Rhiwallon. Here's a quote from this site:

Gruffydd ap Llywelyn who inflicted a series of defeats on the English, and made alliances with the enemies of King Edward the Confessor. Gruffydd fought a long campaign against rival kings to win overall control of Wales. By 1055, he had become master of Deheubarth and had expanded his rule to the lesser kingdoms of Morgannwg (Glamorgan) and Gwent. In 1063, Earl Harold Godwinsson (later Harold II) and his brother Tostig made a joint attack on Gwynedd. At the same time, Deheubarth rebelled against Gruffydd's rule. Gruffydd fled and was murdered by his own men.
Maredudd ap Gruffydd, the son of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, was excluded from the throne by his uncles Bleddyn ap Cynfyn and Rhywallon ap Cynfyn.

I think it might be best if we give Deheubarth to Maredudd and give him a claim on Gwynedd. Maredudd should have the "ap Seisyll" dynasty. It's also possible that he should be a vassal of Gwynedd (in that case Bleddyn should be Duke of Deheubarth while Maredudd its count).

I found this page about the genealogy of the Gwent/Glywysing/Morgannwg area:
http://www.britannia.com/history/ebk/gene/anwnped.html

According to it, Cadwgan was King of Morgannwg who died in 1072. Iestyn was his cousin, and ruled until 1093, as you mention (then the area was conquered by the Normans). Iestyn had several sons who apparently left no issue. It looks like we may have to construct an entirely new dynasty for the rulers of Glamorgan.

Here's another interesting source (clickable map with timelines for the regions): http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/FeaturesBritain/CymruMapWales.htm

 

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If we made Deheubarth a vassal of Gwynedd, there's little stopping Gwynedd from becoming Kingdom of Wales without firing a single shot. o

I was wrong about Cadogan. it was confusing, since "Cadogan" and "Caradog" (Rulers of Deheubarth before Iestyn) were both names of sons of Iestyn. However, the rulers being his cousins as you mentioned makes perfect sense.

 

[Solmyr]

Yeah, I forgot about the King of Wales. You are right, best not make it too easy for Gwynedd. Should Gwynedd and Deheubarth have claims on each other though?

So currently we have:

- Bleddyn Cynfyn as Duke of Gwynedd (correct in CK)
- maybe his brother Rhywallon as a vassal count? He seems to have been a co-ruler
- Maredudd ap Seisyll as Duke of Deheubarth
- Cadwgan as count of Glamorgan (should be old and childless, with Gwrgant and Iestyn being closest heirs). Based on the website above, their dynasty should be either "ap Dynod" (if we go all the way to the ancestor) or "ap Morgan" (if we only count the rulers of Morgannwg).