1066 cultures

[King]

The 'Highland Line' represents a social divide. That's my only defence for it in 1066. That and we don't know exactly what was being spoken in NE Scotland before the C12.

Prior to the marriage between Malcolm Canmore and Margaret Atheling all of Scotland was gaelic. We know this because the Lothian Clergy all spoke gaelic around about the rule of Malcolm Canmore, but Margaret spoke to them in Saxon.

'Galloway' is another CK vexation. That area should be called Nithsdale or something instead.

Although in 1066 Galloway is not a title, through out much of the CK period the Lords of Galloway were important figures in Scotland's politics. There is also theories going around, which are very speculative, that Fergus, the first Lord of Galooway we can prove exists, was infact the Grandson of Maldred, the cousin of Malcolm Canmore. Although that is a very speculative punt. Nithsdale never became an important title till the rise of the Black Douglas Family after Bannockburn.

 

[King]

King Was Gaelic really that widespread in Lothian? Or was it just an 'official' language for the Celtic Church?

I have a nasty suspicion that the 'best' historical way to resolve this, given the shortage of cultures, would be to make Lothian, Berwick, Carrick & maybe Strathclyde & Fife 'English' (actually the Anglo-Celtic 'Scots' culture that came to dominate the country); Galloway, Caithness, the Hebrides & maybe Cumberland & Sutherland 'Norse' and the remainder 'Scottish', representing the original Gaelic culture which was gradually displaced by the Anglo-Scottish during the CK period. But that would require Scotland to have English state culture, which would get me killed, so I won't suggest it.

Well Gaelic was the offical language of the Chruch and more importantly the nobility of the early CK period. Although after the marriage of Malcolm Canmore to Margaret these began to shift to English. With regards to the population at large it was a whole host of langauges accross the south of Scotland. We have Celts, Angles, Norse and Brittons. However from a game point of view the main effect of culture is the naming of the characters. So in my opinion Scottish culture (which in actual terms in a nightmare to nail down considering we went from skirt wearing Celts to civilised Englishmen over ther period ) is correct because the rulers will get the right names.

 

[King]

About Moray. I have seen maps like you describe, with Moray extending in a big belt above the Mounth from sea to sea. But its core was always far to the east -

- control anywhere west of the near end of Loch Ness is conjectural.

Well I do agree with you on the location of where the modern County of Moray is centred but not with the ancient mormearship. During the period supressions of revolt the Crown got from Moray the key strong point they took and garrisoned was not Elgin, but Castle Urquhart on the shores of Loch Ness. The Anceunt Mormearship is believed to included all of modern Ross and Cromarty as well.

That's right. The way the map has it 'Atholl' includes some of Scotland's best land and what was arguably the focus of the whole kingdom before the C13 - the lower Tay, Scone, Dunkeld, Perth and so forth. Of course Atholl itself is a backwater.

Certainly in the 11th & 12th century Atholl was one of the wathiest parts of Kingdom hence the whole purpose of the marriage alliance between the Malcolm II and Crinan of Atholl. However this started to decline and the focus of the country steadly shifted south. By the 14th century the wealthiest towns are in Lothain based on trade to the continent.

Top tier only across much of Scotland I'd have thought. Lothian never lost its connection with Northumberland.

Toop tier only? As they Emperors first, Kings second, Princes Thrid and the rest nowhere.

We can get some idea of what the designers meant by looking at the name-list - it's obvious they have a later period in mind because in with all the Duncans and Forueleths there's Marys, Davids, Margarets and so forth. A nightmare as you say.

And yes, at the end of the day, it's only about names and to provide a speed-bump for tech spread and certain events.

Yes the name list is purpose built for the region, most of them are. However there are a few hidden things about culutre I really can't talk about. NDA such a bitch.

 

[King]

I agree its influence was far more extensive but its focus was always Strathspey.

I had Urquhart in mind when I mentioned Loch Ness but can you think of a single place associated with Moray to the west of that?

To be honest there are not that many places west of Urquhart. So we struggling to find a place assaciate with anyone

On what basis, though, but colouring a map?

Well we know that The Pictish Kingdom of Scotland was divded into 7 Mormearships. These were Caithness, Moray, Mar, Angus, Atholl, Strathern and Fife. By a process of elimination we know that Ross and Cromaty must be part of either Caithness or Moray. Anything else just doesn't make sense. Now the mormearship of Ciathness fell to the Jarls of Orkney by marriage and as near as we can tell Caithenss was still not subject to the Scottish Crown during the reign of Alexander I. Yet at the same time Malcolm MacHeth (believed to be the bastard son of Alexander) was granted the title Earl of Ross by Alexander. By a process of elimination here Ross is unlikely to be part of Caithness. Since Alexander had just kicked the crap of the Moray men for raising a revolt in the name of Donald the Bane the odds are that the reason Alexander had land to give out in the form of Ross was that the terrotry was part of Moray.

Aye. One of the reasons it's a shame events can't change income levels.

If 'Atholl' is meant to include Perth and Dundee I suppose it should remain a bit richer than surrounding areas, though according to this here Atlas of Scottish History they were utterly eclipsed for volume of trade by Berwick in its heyday as well as Leith and even Culross.

Dundee is part of Angus, and as far as I know wasn't really that an important town. As for changing the income levels. All I can say is such as life. It also gives the problems that you are really looking for the income level that most applies for a period of 400 years. This is obviously going to have the income levels for a province being hopelessly wrong for the starts of some, possible all of the scenarios. Such is life.

 

[King]

How about NOTA? An area so remote and underpopulated as to fall outside the East's orbit, or any orbit?

I would disagree there. Although there were not that many major towns in the area. Ross did support a fairly large Rural population during the CK period. It was only in the 19th century that the population of Highlands would start to decline. Also as our main form of communication is the sea, Ross is not relatively speaking not that remote.