1053- Year of the Great Schism

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I think the more powerful and prosperous the Empire was, the more power the Emperor had in church politics and theology. When the Empire declined, the patriarch and the Holy Synod came to be more independent. During this period, the Emperor would certainly have considerable power within the church.

 

[Alexandre]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
I could be wrong, but it was my understanding there was no single "head" of the Orthodox church. The Emperor had a significant role, the Patriarch had a significant role, and ecumenical councils had a significant role. This differs from the Roman church, where the Pope is all-powerful.

The Emperor is the thirteenth apostle.

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
Agreed, but the patriarch wasn't simply subservient to the Emperor. There were historical examples where the Patriarch successfully took on the Emperor.

I´d say the Pope is a great spiritual leader with some worldly power. The emperor was the reverse. It is simply not the same thing and they shouldn´t be done in the same way.

 

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But it's not so much comparing the Pope and the Emperor as comparing the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople...

 

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy
But it's not so much comparing the Pope and the Emperor as comparing the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople...

apples and oranges; that's been the point the entire time

 

[Nikolai II]

Re: Re: Re: 1053- Year of the Great Schism

Originally posted by Alexandre


But, it shouldn't be automatic. If the Emperor controls the Pope, for example, he should be able to stop it. Likewise, if the Ducas have a lot of piety, it should be a lot harder (more expensive in terms of piety loss) etc.

Alexandre

Since game starts in 1066 the emperor would be unable to stop it, since it has already happened.

Maybe he could try to reverse it, but he would likely fail.

Neither Pope nor Patriarch even managed to stop their own heretics in any way other than killing them/inquisition, how would they be able to destroy/subjugate another major branch of christianity?

At best they could perhaps hope to shift loyalties of areas uncertain/divided or other small principalites that find they get better leverage through conversion to new dominant faith, but it wouldn't be (have been) all of catholicism/orthodoxy, rather some few exceptions from an all-pervasive rule.

So, maybe some parts of balkans and up along the 'borderlands' of the two christianities, and maybe some small areas outside of this, but no more, I am afraid.

 

[Norgesvenn]

At best they could perhaps hope to shift loyalties of areas uncertain/divided or other small principalites that find they get better leverage through conversion to new dominant faith, but it wouldn't be (have been) all of catholicism/orthodoxy, rather some few exceptions from an all-pervasive rule.

That's a very good point, Mr. Nikolai.

And fairly reminiscent of how the Protestant cause won its way in Northern Europe. Although there were obvious theological differences, the political climate would also play an important role.

 

[unmerged(4679)]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 1053- Year of the Great Schism

Originally posted by Nikolai II
Since game starts in 1066 the emperor would be unable to stop it, since it has already happened.

I agree. I don't understand this discussion at all.

 

[Winkelried]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 1053- Year of the Great Schism

Originally posted by Nikolai II


Since game starts in 1066 the emperor would be unable to stop it, since it has already happened.

If you control the papacy you could call for crusades and conquer all the orthodox provinces. Phase two would be to convert them and that way end the schism. Certainly worth trying, especially if you rule a powerful catholic country.

 

[Nikolai II]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1053- Year of the Great Schism

Originally posted by Winkelried


If you control the papacy you could call for crusades and conquer all the orthodox provinces. Phase two would be to convert them and that way end the schism. Certainly worth trying, especially if you rule a powerful catholic country.

Conquer maybe, but not recieve, they would be divided unto all comers, c.f. Latin empires.

Converting? It worked in baltic and finland, but didn't work in greece and levant.

Even the (non-holy) Roman Emperor during the days of strength of Byzans couldn't even force his own subjects to follow the empires brand of orthodoxy, then how will some king twice as far away or much more even have a smidgeon of a chance?

Sure, conversion of nearby lands, yes, but that would force you to try and slog your way across the balkans, and I for one sure hope that the game engine will deal with the terribly swift sword upon someone making his kingdom that large. (Overland from catholic parts of europe to the holy land)


Then again, it is a game, maybe it will be possible, and in that case it might be fun trying, I just hope that it will be practically impossible to do the mass conversions of EU.

 

[Alexandre]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 1053- Year of the Great Schism

Originally posted by Nikolai II


Since game starts in 1066 the emperor would be unable to stop it, since it has already happened.

It was happening. At the time, everyone expected that there would be a reconciliation. If political pressures in Rome and Constantinople are different, a reconciliation was possible -- it still is.

Maybe he could try to reverse it, but he would likely fail.

it certainly shouldn't be easy, and even if successful, there should be a possibility for a future Schism if the poltical situation allows it. That is one reason why I'm quite interested in the possibility of heresies. It keeps the whole religious issue far more alive, and interesting than in EU and EU II where it was far to deterministic. I'd like to see heresies emerge in a given province (either randomly or historically) and a failure to crush it leading to its growth and spread. For example, there is an X% chance of a bordering province to convert, and 1/2X% chance for a province that borders a bordering province to convert.

Neither Pope nor Patriarch even managed to stop their own heretics in any way other than killing them/inquisition, how would they be able to destroy/subjugate another major branch of christianity?

Inquisition, temporal force, church council, getting the right (i.e., friendly) person elected as Pope or Patriarch.

At best they could perhaps hope to shift loyalties of areas uncertain/divided or other small principalites that find they get better leverage through conversion to new dominant faith, but it wouldn't be (have been) all of catholicism/orthodoxy, rather some few exceptions from an all-pervasive rule.

Far more likely. Agreed.

Alexandre