100% War Score should mean unconditional surrender

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Stratagyfan101

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Until near 100% war score/occupation is impossible, then this is a bad idea. It is way to easy to wipe out the enemy armies, smaller armies rarely beat larger armies,the AI is terrible at playing defensively and picking terrain, sieges are far too easy, and the AI is bad at coordinating with other AIs. If you could actually lose sieges and effectively rebuild an army without worrying about a stack of 5k walking around attrition free through your realm breaking it up before it ever rebuilds then maybe.

If you can solve these problems, them fine, add this in. Until that day, no thank you. The fact of the matter is the game is centered around Europe, and in Europe, countries didn't readily annex other countries and when they may have started to, it was only until relatively late in the era.
 

Montrealer

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Seeing how there are obviously two entrenched camps on this subject - those who like the current system and those who prefer a more conquest friendly system, why not ask Paradox for a slider on game start? It would disable ironman achievements but could allow for lower warscore calculations (or higher if you're so inclined) per base tax.

This would allow for both camps to adjust as they see fit to enjoy the game. We could also have sliders for AE and OE.
 

OhioAstro

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Because them programming mechanics that I dislike and that will never affect me takes time away from them programming mechanics I like?

There is a price to be paid for things that other people like. I never play multiplayer online games, ever, for example, but I recognize that others do, so I'm not going to complain if they try to fix multiplayer issues that others have. The game in its current state is not working for a number of players, and if this is not resolved it could permanently cost Paradox some customers. If given a choice between losing camp A and losing camp B, they will probably do best by trying to design a setup where A and B can both do what they want.
 

bleakie

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I'm not sure I understand this. If I know that every single stack is going to create attrition as it sieges, and if territories farther away from my controlled or allied territory were going to give even more attrition, it seems to me it would disincentivize blanket sieging. Trying to siege everything at once would result in massive manpower losses and accompanying war exhaustion.

What am I not understanding about this? I'd love for you to elaborate more.

I think the core problem is that we use the term "blanket siege" differently.
From my viewpoint, "blanket siege" does not automatically mean laying siege on the whole country. Covering two layers of provinces also count as a form of "blanket siege".
Higher siege attrition actually encourages this kind of "blanket siege", because the alternative, which is to use one or two large stacks to focus on a few target provinces, has become relatively expensive manpower-wise. If you use a two-layer blanket scheme, you can still take over a medium country in 3-5 siege cycles or so.


My problem with the 0.4 a month is that, at 63 months, it's often more efficient to simply siege down all their provinces than wait for the warscore tick. By speeding up the tick, it becomes faster and more optimal to hold and wait, as opposed to the currently optimal tactics of carpet siege. The combination of changes would 1) Make carpet siege more manpower expensive and 2) Make siege what you want and hold it a faster and manpower optimal strategy than carpet siege.

I'm not quite sure how my suggestions would do the opposite of what I want, but I'd love for you to explain your reasoning to me in more depth so I can understand where the solution would fall apart.

62 months is for the max 25% ticking warscore. If all you want is a single border province, then you do not need to wait for that long. 10% occupation warscore +10% ticking warscore + 5% battle warscore should be more than enough for a single province. If you want more, then naturally you have to wait longer.
 

unmerged(783555)

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62 months is for the max 25% ticking warscore. If all you want is a single border province, then you do not need to wait for that long. 10% occupation warscore +10% ticking warscore + 5% battle warscore should be more than enough for a single province. If you want more, then naturally you have to wait longer.

Greatest troll or greatest troll. His entire argument is that the wars should be shorter, jeez.
 

ringhloth

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There is a price to be paid for things that other people like. I never play multiplayer online games, ever, for example, but I recognize that others do, so I'm not going to complain if they try to fix multiplayer issues that others have. The game in its current state is not working for a number of players, and if this is not resolved it could permanently cost Paradox some customers. If given a choice between losing camp A and losing camp B, they will probably do best by trying to design a setup where A and B can both do what they want.

I'm guessing that the people who want peace systems to work in a way suggested by this thread are a much smaller minority than those that wan't multiplayer to work.

I'm also guessing that multiplayer fixes are much less work intensive then the programming, testing, and balancing of something like what is being suggested in the thread.
 

Schleisen

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I generally believe that getting %100 WS should be really hard and if we somehow manage to do that, then we should be able to annex. Overextension will do the rest I believe.
 

Mann42

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I think the core problem is that we use the term "blanket siege" differently.
From my viewpoint, "blanket siege" does not automatically mean laying siege on the whole country. Covering two layers of provinces also count as a form of "blanket siege".
Higher siege attrition actually encourages this kind of "blanket siege", because the alternative, which is to use one or two large stacks to focus on a few target provinces, has become relatively expensive manpower-wise.
Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. If you're losing 1% regardless, you're incentivized to create 5 stacks of 5 rather than 1 stack of 30, since you lose the same amount either way. That makes sense.

This is why I suggested 'deeper' territory gives exponentially higher attrition, so that second layer would be losing 2% (or more), the third layer 5% (or more), and so on. Even better, the very act of walking that deep into enemy territory should see the standard terrain attrition also increase by the same amount, to discourage deep pushes into enemy territory without nearby allied territory.

I think this also points out another issue concerning the current risk/reward of wars and sieging. If I do have a 30 stack working on a siege, it should probably speed up the siege in some way. Right now, the only troop type that speeds up sieging at all are artillery. The risk (1% attrition) scales with army size, but the reward (siege speed) doesn't. I think the actual siege mechanics can be adjusted to make large stacks a bit more rewarding.

If you use a two-layer blanket scheme, you can still take over a medium country in 3-5 siege cycles or so.
This proves my point about the ticking war score. The current ticking war score is so slow that it is more efficient, and optimal, for me to conduct total war and blanket the enemy, since the war score gain from systematic total war is faster and more rewarding than the ticking war score from the war goal. That's not a proper risk/reward curve. If the ticking war score were faster, at least, so that it was more time efficient than blanket sieging, then it might be worth it. But as you point out, its currently just easier to blanket siege and rack up higher warscore from total war tactics.

62 months is for the max 25% ticking warscore. If all you want is a single border province, then you do not need to wait for that long. 10% occupation warscore +10% ticking warscore + 5% battle warscore should be more than enough for a single province. If you want more, then naturally you have to wait longer.
But as you so eloquently said above, 3-5 siege cycles is generally shorter than waiting 62 months for a max warscore, and more rewarding in terms of warscore. Why wait 5 years for 25% when the game mechanics currently allow me to easily gain 100% in that same 5 years just by blanket siege?

It's not about 'just taking a single province'. It's about taking the 3 or 4 provinces on my border, and doing it in a way where I'm rewarded to play in a somewhat historical manner, focusing on border skirmishes and rewarding players for focusing on the wargoal itself, as opposed to kill enemy doomstack-split own doomstack-blanket siege.

Right now, the very mechanics of the game reward total war, so people like the OP naturally expect they should be able to earn more than just the 4 measly provinces on their border. What I'm ultimately suggesting is to create a system where you focus on those provinces on your border, and when that's all you can take due to war score anyway, you aren't scratching your head why you just had to conquer Iberia for them.

The real problem is that the fastest, most efficient strategy is to to siege a whole country for what is considered a realistic/historical gain (of a couple provinces). You should be able to optimally attain a border push through a border war, not total war. Unfortunately, that's not how the game works right now or how you're rewarded.
 

YoDaddy

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My problem with the system isn't that I can't force a total surrender from 100%, it's that I need 100% to get the 4 provinces I wanted on my border.

As France I can get England to give me the 4 provinces with a score of just 65%.

If I want to do an offensive war, I would fabricate claims on all 4 of those provinces and at war time with a ticking war score, get around the same percentage.
 

unmerged(783555)

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As France I can get England to give me the 4 provinces with a score of just 65%.

If I want to do an offensive war, I would fabricate claims on all 4 of those provinces and at war time with a ticking war score, get around the same percentage.

He's not being literal, he's trying to make a point, and he's using more or less arbitrary numbers to get it across.
 

Themilo

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To be honest I don’t really get the point of doing this, if it’s impossible to annex France in one war without your entire country getting annihilated by rebels then why even include the option?
 

ringhloth

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To be honest I don’t really get the point of doing this, if it’s impossible to annex France in one war without your entire country getting annihilated by rebels then why even include the option?

The problem isn't that you would get annihilated by rebels. You wouldn't get annihilated, since you could just release them as a vassal.
 

StatikShocker

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I generally believe that getting %100 WS should be really hard and if we somehow manage to do that, then we should be able to annex. Overextension will do the rest I believe.

this is essentially what my sentiments are.

also, ai vassals should really want to declare independence more. in fact, I've never seen it happen. If they determine that they have a bigger military, they should be able to do this. Or at least to be opportunistic, to be able to break off during wars or join coalitions against you. I don't know how to work that one out, but its too easy for humans right now. Indeed, they should be more likely to break off than PUs, since they have their own king. released vassals is a stupid concept to me. does it have any historical context?
 

Kljunas

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To be honest I don’t really get the point of doing this, if it’s impossible to annex France in one war without your entire country getting annihilated by rebels then why even include the option?

I don't think people would want to annex France, but just take more than the current 100% WS. Like when you invade a small nation but it turns out you'd need 110% to annex it, and you can't do anything about it besides waiting 10 years to declare a second war.
 

StatikShocker

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No one has addressed one of my points, in regard to capitals. Capitals being unavailable in peace deals until a country has been whittled down to almost nothing after 10 wars breaks the game. Who told the manchus that they couldn't have beijing? It's so utterly stupid, it is possibly the most ahistorical aspect of this game, and no one has a thing to say about it?
 

mcmanusaur

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I think currently the benefits of war to the winning side are just about well-balanced (though AE could be toned down slightly, and warscore limits peace deals too arbitrarily), but the costs to the losing side are far too small in my opinion. There's no ability to cripple a country even with a 100% warscore unless you devote all of that to releasing vassals. For example, upon 100% warscore you should be able to partition a losing country along with multiple allies (substantial penalties for losing but not to the benefit of any one nation). You should also be able to enforce truces for longer than five years, and more economic demands a la trade power transferring. Because as it is you can undertake major wars every couple years, since no single one can ever be that costly, which is a bit unrealistic. Deposing monarchs in favor of puppet leaders would be another interesting option. At the end of the day, I don't think you should be able to annex that much more land in a single treaty than you can now, but you should be able to do more to expand your sphere of influence and punish your enemies.
 

Chamboozer

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open for criticism/comments, please let's start a conversation about this! These ideas were formed while I typed based on my experiences, tell me yours.

Not until conquest and occupation becomes even remotely similar in difficulty to what it would be in reality.

As for capitals - yes, there shouldn't be a restriction on taking them. Just so long as the AI is much less willing to give them up than any other province.