100% War Score should mean unconditional surrender

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Zaelot

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I am pretty new to EUIV but i would like to leave an opinion about this. Sorry for my english in advise :D

I dont agree with letting to anex full countries in a war. That would work in 20th Century or even 19 but not in 16 or 17.

An example: Year 1530, lets say Spain and France claims navarra as part of their country. Then they start a war for Navarra, France defeat Spain armies and asks for navarra in the peace offer. Spain would say "Ok its yours". No one in the world would hate France because navarra "is considered" part of france. ( Game covers this with the CB system )

What happens if France ask for aragon too? Then Spain would say "Aragon?, what are you talking about? well, i have no armies so we could make a deal in the end...." Then, other countries would be angry with France ( Game works like this with AE) and even french people would be angry with their goverment/King ( OE reflect this ). France would need to have a bigger victory over Spain to ask for Aragon in adition to Navarre ( this is what Warscore covers. The more you want, the more i have to be defeated).

And what happens if France ask for a full anexion? Then Spain would say "hmm, full anexion? never, i wont dissaperd from the map, you can keep ocupying my country for years if you want, but i will be worse for you and you wont even get Navarra in the end" ( Game works like this not letting you full anexing big countries because they will say always "NO").

An occupation of a country like Spain, would cost to much for France. Each day of full occupation, is one more day you are being hated by the rest of the world and increasing..., one more day of french people asking why are french soldiers dying in spain everyday if you allready won the war ( i thnk the game covers this too), it would be logistically VERY hard to maintain a full occupacion for years in the 16th century, rebellions everywhere, the french soldiers would start asking themselfs what are they doing still there...
Spain knows this, so they wont ever accept a full anexion, and France knows this so they wont ever ask for a full anexion.
I think this is the key.

In my opinion the game is pretty fair in this aspect. I think the paradox view of the Warscore is the maximun things the looser is disposed to give(Regions, religion conversion, releasing countries, money...), more than that they wont accept peace terms.
Inconditional surrender should be a rare thing maybe via events.

The real problem is that it is very easy to reach 100% war score. In wars, you can see army stacks, bigger or smaller, running around in enemy countries without penalty. The atrittion for being in enemy countries should be much higher, and deeper you go, higher should be.
Like many people is saying in this post, wars in this time period were mainly in the frontiers and in the war goals regions.
 
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frolix42

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Indeed, another problem is taking capitals in peace deals. When I was prussia, poland moved their capital to my core danzig. This move made it impossible for me to take my core and connect the prussian lands without completely annexing the massive poland blob that had annexed lithuania, moldavia, mazovia, crimea, and novgorod. I achieved 100% and sieged that entire bastard with help from scandinavia, but still couldn't get the island danzig, the prussian core with prussian culture, surrounded by prussian lands. "Oh but that's my capital and the rules say you can't have it, even though you have stormed my quarters and have a musket in my face"

I agree. You would get more traction if you focused on this issue.

At full occupation, they don't have a government. Korea only exists in spirit, crushed spirit. If you manage to achieve 100% warscore against someone (which is only easy against small nations that you can already essentially enforce demands on) then you NEED to be able to write the treaty and hand it to the defeated leader. Sign here please, no need to read it.

I disagree.
 
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Chevaresqye

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Totally annex a country is nothing strange during EU4 period. Of course, those total annex was under cover of protectorate and dummy government, people have done it since ancient history till today. Do you see what the Ottoman did?

Allowing war parties to keep what they occupy is a easy way to solve the issue.
 

Kapteinsabel

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You guys don't understand anything, I mean for real, you don't have a clue.....

you can't just hack on one part off the game, and cry: "this is wrong". ofc it is, everything is total bs, but combine everything and you get something semi realistic where some nations do good and some do bad, and in the end, some times in new names, the world looks realistic ish. and thats the hole point. ofc IN the game, you can stand in ever province and hold a land capped for 200 years if you like, and say: HEY 200 YEARS WHY CAN'T I DEMAND WHAT EVER I WANT. but if you want to game to be like that. you have to change everything else. you need to get AE for ever province you take over. or the cost off war goes up for admin costs for holding all this land. RIOTS fom holding a land down, your own people getting upset for you killing and enslaving nations. there are SOOOOOO many factors.

but as it is, non off the factors that play in eu4 makes sence, but if you combine them (like the game does) it all works good, ofc, it can get better :)
 

Chevaresqye

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You guys don't understand anything, I mean for real, you don't have a clue.....

you can't just hack on one part off the game, and cry: "this is wrong". ofc it is, everything is total bs, but combine everything and you get something semi realistic where some nations do good and some do bad, and in the end, some times in new names, the world looks realistic ish. and thats the hole point. ofc IN the game, you can stand in ever province and hold a land capped for 200 years if you like, and say: HEY 200 YEARS WHY CAN'T I DEMAND WHAT EVER I WANT. but if you want to game to be like that. you have to change everything else. you need to get AE for ever province you take over. or the cost off war goes up for admin costs for holding all this land. RIOTS fom holding a land down, your own people getting upset for you killing and enslaving nations. there are SOOOOOO many factors.

but as it is, non off the factors that play in eu4 makes sence, but if you combine them (like the game does) it all works good, ofc, it can get better :)

The thing is the game won't work, that is why people complain.
 

darthfanta

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It annoys me that I need 2-3 wars to annex a 10-12 province minor as an 80-province Timurid Empire, due to the bullshit warscore mechanics. I simply am incapable of building up enough OE to get past 50-60% for this very reason.



If you can occupy 100% of France's provinces, you earned it.



Napoleonic France would like to have a word with you, as the above statement (conquer large country, annex, release as vassal) is pretty much how Napoleon rolled until he finally bit off more than he could chew in Russia.
Well, even though Napoleon absolutely beat the crap out of Prussia and Austria, he still hasn't fully annexed either.
 

Novacat

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Well, even though Napoleon absolutely beat the crap out of Prussia and Austria, he still hasn't fully annexed either.

Fully annexed no, but he did vassalize a good chunk of the HRE, and annexed all of the low countries.
 

darthfanta

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Fully annexed no, but he did vassalize a good chunk of the HRE, and annexed all of the low countries.
At any rate, he didn't fully take down those two, merely took some territory from Prussia and Austria, and forced them into an alliance that was more symbolic than anything,even after in the case of Prussia, Prussia could have been fully annexed.The HRE members were at any rate, mostly small enough to be vassalized in game terms.But what the heck am I even talking about, most cases in real life end with a fully conquered nation fully annexed, large or small. Song China by the Mongol Empire, the Persian Empire by Alexander III. Persia again by the Mongols. The entirety of Egypt by the Rome.
 
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jovialbard

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Hmm, it does seem like creating vassals is the most historical means of large scale conquest. The interesting thing is that Napoleon wasn't seeking a peace deal that would cede him all the lands of Europe. He was just planning on occupying them and subjugating them whether they consent and agree or not.

Perhaps the game should treat occupied lands slightly differently, like give you more control over them, and not end occupation as part of a truce. If you could occupy lands for a hundred years without a war, and maybe even core them while they are considered occupied (possibly then flipping them to your control) I feel like that would be both historical and quite functional. You could then offer to end occupation of a territory as part of a peace deal. With two-pane diplomacy this could also remove the need to factor occupied provinces into warscore. You trade the provinces you have occupied for the concessions you want. This approach feels... right, to me.
 

wackazoa

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It's not the 20th century. You CAN'T ask for an unconditional surrender: a big nation will simply tell "no", and it will be no, because you can't occupy it forever.

Google Romans v. Carthage.

I just wonder if making land cultures more nationalistic would help. While you can annex the hell out of Europe, eventually they will all want to free or together. So a small conglomerate of provinces in France always want to form France. Or another name but France in country. Or any other area with large culture area. That would make more sense.
 
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nijis

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Carthage is kind of the exception that proves the rule, actually.

1) It took three wars
2) Carthage was structurally a city-state with a huge sphere of influence
3) The Romans only won by destroying the city at the heart of this very loose-limbed "empire"
 

darthfanta

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Carthage is kind of the exception that proves the rule, actually.

1) It took three wars
2) Carthage was structurally a city-state with a huge sphere of influence
3) The Romans only won by destroying the city at the heart of this very loose-limbed "empire"
By the time the Third Punic War started, Carthage wasn't even an empire anymore.
 

Stratagyfan101

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If the game could ever fully represent the amount of international outrage, internal problems, and the concept of a government in exile, then sure let full annexation happen, but as it stands the game cannot represent that. If the Ottomans annex the Mamluks outright, it should really put them on the map for Mediterranean, African, and Middle Eastern countries, as well as cost skyrocket ottoman OE causing revolt risk in not only conquered, but non-culture, non-religion regions.

I agree the arbitrary limits do need to go, but not prematurely. The ability to wage total war needs to be severely hampered. If the AI can ever handle naval attrition, then that system should be adapted to land attrition and then maybe we can think about getting rid of the warscore limits.
 

darthfanta

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If the game could ever fully represent the amount of international outrage, internal problems, and the concept of a government in exile, then sure let full annexation happen, but as it stands the game cannot represent that. If the Ottomans annex the Mamluks outright, it should really put them on the map for Mediterranean, African, and Middle Eastern countries, as well as cost skyrocket ottoman OE causing revolt risk in not only conquered, but non-culture, non-religion regions.

I agree the arbitrary limits do need to go, but not prematurely. The ability to wage total war needs to be severely hampered. If the AI can ever handle naval attrition, then that system should be adapted to land attrition and then maybe we can think about getting rid of the warscore limits.
Actually the Ottomans did annex the Mamluks in one war in real life, without suffering OE.Though arguably, it could be said that they conquered the Mamluks, made it into some sort of quasi personal union/vassal that acknowledges the Ottoman ruler as their sultan as well as contributing troops and money while at the same time the Mamluks were left in charge to their own affairs.
 

Mann42

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Actually the Ottomans did annex the Mamluks in one war in real life, without suffering OE.Though arguably, it could be said that they conquered the Mamluks, made it into some sort of quasi personal union/vassal that acknowledges the Ottoman ruler as their sultan as well as contributing troops and money while at the same time the Mamluks were left in charge to their own affairs.
One of the problems I have with the War Score system is that the cost of vassalization and full annexation is usually (outside of specific mission CBs) the same. Historically, full annexations were rare, but vassalization (or political equivalent) of large nations after a complete war were much more common.

I feel like some of the issue would be addressed if it were cheaper to vassalize a nation at 100% warscore, but vassals in general would have to fight a bit harder for their freedom to make it viably balanced.
 

Stratagyfan101

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One of the problems I have with the War Score system is that the cost of vassalization and full annexation is usually (outside of specific mission CBs) the same. Historically, full annexations were rare, but vassalization (or political equivalent) of large nations after a complete war were much more common.

I feel like some of the issue would be addressed if it were cheaper to vassalize a nation at 100% warscore, but vassals in general would have to fight a bit harder for their freedom to make it viably balanced.

This too. Vassals should not be so diplomatically impotent. They should try and seek their own independence should they believe themselves able to overthrow their liege. They should also be able to conduct diplomacy with said liege's other vassals, and maybe even one of the liege's rivals.