100% War Score should mean unconditional surrender

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Carbon

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No, that's stupid and unrealistic. Total wars are not an early modern thing, wars shouldn't even go to 100% with anything like the regularity it does now.

This.

Napoleonic France would like to have a word with you, as the above statement (conquer large country, annex, release as vassal) is pretty much how Napoleon rolled until he finally bit off more than he could chew in Russia.

Napoleon never annexed major countries like Prussia and Austria. He vassalized Spain, Germany and northern Italy, that was mostly it. The peace treaties Napoleon had with Austria are very possible in EU IV.

I don't want to go OT and start a historical debate, but outright annexing major countries should be impossible. However, late-game should allow you to hypothetically do what Napoleon could do (vassalize regional powers, conquering many provinces, forcing enemies to enter into a reluctant alliance) under a revolutionary war or something and when you occupy most of the enemy land.

As of now, late game wars are boring and very unlike the Napoleonic wars.

Anything before then, it should be impossible to outright annex any country over 10 provinces.
 

Wodan9

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The "ultimate governing authority" is that they don't derive their power from their vassals. They pay the wages of the troops, they appoint high ranking officials from wherever they so please, and they don't have to abide by any constitution.

If I'm not mistaken, that is the argument. This isn't my view, but I believe that it's being argued that they are in fact deriving their power from the vassals because they have the ability to say no. It's the idea of consent of the governed. According to that theory, no one has any kind of absolute power ever, and it's impossible to do so. Again, we're only looking at definitions, not historical events. This is because the game isn't strictly historical. As soon as you unpause it, it ceases to be historical immediately. One could say that it's loosely based on historical events, but the longer the game goes on, the less historical it becomes.

In feudal monarchies, the monarch may tell vassals what to do, but they are bound by feudal contracts and the like, and ultimately the vassals are the ones who wield all of the power. In constitutional monarchies, the monarch may tell the magistrates and the like what to do, but they're ultimately bound by a constitution and a parliament telling them that they can't do such and such.

Right. That's how that philosophy goes.

Back to the root, matter though: absolute monarchies. The fact is that though they don't derive their authority from agreements with their nobles, they still do have people ruling in their stead. You'll see much more of the less influential upper class and middle class compared to other government forms doing things like governing towns and making deals with other countries, but their still the ones making the deals, and if they strongly object enough, they won't make the deals.

Maybe this is true historically, but when we read the definition of the term, what you said here isn't addressed. In fact, I think the basic theory goes something like this: although they don't derive their authority from the nobles or from anyone else, they are still only ruling because those underneath the absolute monarch allow him or her to do so. By that definition, there is no such thing as absolute anything and certainly there has never been a dictator ever. That is, if you go by that philosophy. One can never govern "absolutely" in that case.

Is it unrealistic that absolute monarchies are bound just as much by relations limit as feudal monarchies? Yes. Completely. Absolute monarchies would have far more leeway than other governments in terms of what they could do contrary to the opinions of the majority of the movers and shakers. Is it worth programming an entirely different system to differentiate diplomacy for absolute monarchies? I'd say no. I'd rather see a lot of other features than the fixing of an occasional annoyance. Is it worth COMPLETELY removing the relations limit? No. That's also unrealistic, because there are government systems where the nobles have enough power to object to those things. Is it worth it to remove the limit for absolute monarchies? I'd say no. That's also unrealistic, because if the entire country said "we don't want an alliance with Spain" and Louis DOES want an alliance with Spain, what's Louis going to do? Walk to Spain himself, tell Izzy that he wants to make smoochies, and just marry himself off?

I would say that a player lacking the ability to control certain parts of the game, even when they are supposed to be totally in control, is really the problem. It's not just about absolute rule. To me, that's really the issue. It says you're an "absolute" monarch, but you aren't even close in this game. Does that need to be fixed? Well, myself and others just want certain parts of the game "fixed" if you will.

I get your last example, and I appreciate the humor there. What's he going to do? He's going to imprison or arrest a few people, make an example of them, and find people who will want an alliance with Spain. That's the usual way to go about these types of things. You just make an offer that they "can't refuse."

It's good that you see this issue from both sides and give a reasonable explanation of why it is the way it is. Even if you had said it was about game balance, I can accept that. Game balance probably makes the most sense to be honest. Using history as a reason is absurd given what can be done in this game anyway.

EDIT: So I mixed this thread up with the one about the relations limit. Whatever. Most of my points still stand.[/QUOTE]
 

Saladin Osmanli

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I think Paradox has the solution to the problem with the "add wargoal" mechanic.
I.e. you declare war with a specific CB
win. capture your target have the score tick to a 100% where you can take the wargoal, whatever. if you want to continue, you need TO ADD ANOTHER WAR GOAL
cost of wargoal addition: AE, WarExhaustion and reduction on warscore to 0%. However, if you achieve your next wargoal, you get the warsocre ticking to 100% again. And so on.

Then, it should be impossible to take significant additional land (in addition to wargoal) even with the 100% warscore, release vassals should be unavailable etc.

For example:
P(layer) declares on A a war with a Conquest CB for province X.
Player beats some armies, sieges and occupies X.
Within a year, even if nothing else happens, the war score ticks to a 100%, however, the player may take the province X (at 30% war score cost), demand alliance annullment, demand cash demand exit from coalition and that is it. no more options.

Let us assume the player wants to extend the fighting and capture provinces Y and Z in addition X.
Player: add wargoal conquer Y (AE =4xBastetaxY, WarExhaustion = BasteTaxY/2), add wargoal Z
With the NEW wargoal not achieved, the Wargoal score is reduced to 0% (battle and occupation warscore is left) and the ticking begins once the player already has occupied the provinces Y and Z.

Now there should also be a WarExhaustion discount and AE penalty on numerous wargoals if added at the time of initial declaration; there should be a WE penalty for adding additional wargoals if already in a war. I suppose there should also be a AE and "Trust" penalty if you add wargoals you have already achieved.

How is that for a mechanic? Would encourage specific war objectives and prior planning...

Interesting proposal, but may I ask that you organize it better? I'm not sure if I got everything that you were trying to say.
 

VolitionNewlove

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So we have the Ottoman>Mamluk and Qing>Ming historical conquests currently impossible due to this mechanic. Are there any more examples (thinking of the hordes, perhaps)?
 

clykke

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There should be a limit to how much land you can take in one war (as it is now) but it should scale with the size of the war/losing nation when said nation is larger than say, 15 provinces (which it does not do now). Make it so you can take 20, 30 or 40 percent (whichever paradox finds best) of a nations provinces with 100% warscore and make it possible to release provinces as nations without the need of existing cores.

As it is now, taking on a huge empire (like Ottomans in my current game) is pointless. I can fight an incredibly expensive war, and even if I dominate them, and occupy every single province, I won't be able to severely weaken them. I think this is the main problem with the game right now.
 

VolitionNewlove

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Napoleon never annexed major countries like Prussia and Austria. He vassalized Spain, Germany and northern Italy, that was mostly it. The peace treaties Napoleon had with Austria are very possible in EU IV.

While Spain may not have been as powerful as it was in the 1500s-1600s, I would still name it the most "major" at the time out of the aforementioned countries, still having the Philippines and Cuba, even if it wasn't properly under control of France. Just nitpicking.
 
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Bellygareth

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So we have the Ottoman>Mamluk and Qing>Ming historical conquests currently impossible due to this mechanic. Are there any more examples (thinking of the hordes, perhaps)?
It's possible to eat up mamluks in a very short time as Ottomans. I managed it by 1510's and that's without focusing on them. You can probably do it in 5/6 wars.

Here's how I did it. Always assuming you get the conquer levant & Egypt missions:

1st war : make a land bridge between Mameluks asian and african lands. You then gain colonial conquest on all the other asian provinces which will be dirt cheap (oversea territories).
2nd/ 3rd war: take levant

4/5/6 wars : take egypt. Depending if Ethiopia helps or not to get mameluks territories, that you can holy war later, it will be easy or very easy.

In 30 / 40 years you should have all of them.
 

VolitionNewlove

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It's possible to eat up mamluks in a very short time as Ottomans. I managed it by 1510's and that's without focusing on them. You can probably do it in 5/6 wars.

Isn't the whole point of this thread is in terms of conquests that happened within one long war? I'm pretty sure nobody will dispute that you can conquer a slightly-less powerful country with another country without many problems.
 

Saladin Osmanli

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Isn't the whole point of this thread is in terms of conquests that happened within one long war? I'm pretty sure nobody will dispute that you can conquer a slightly-less powerful country with another country without many problems.
Hell, the Ottoman conquest of the Mamluk Sultante was far from long -- the actual war lasted one and only one year from start to finish, and from what I've gathered it involved little sieging and much more focused on large battles (one at Marj Dabiq, Aleppo, another at Khan Yunis, Gaza, and the final one at Ridaniya near Cairo, Egypt), probably because the Mamluks' subjects actually welcomed the Ottoman Turks as saviors compared to the Mamluk Turks' own excesses.
 

SuperTechmarine

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A Country should be able to take 25% territory from a sufficiently large nation (say France taking Milan and Belgium from Austria).
Special CBs, given by mission or other (Ottoman Invasion of the Mamlukes.Etc) should have you completely occupy all of the country and after some time, an event should fire that has the victorious country completely annex and core the defeated nation.
 
Last edited:

Vedinu

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I don't support the idea. However it should always be possible to for example
force a religion if that is the wargoal and you have 100 warscore.

A Country should be able to take 25% territory from a sufficiently large nation.

This sounds good.
It could come in EUV, but I think it's too late to change it now.
 

TheSavage01

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I agree with the original poster that this should be the case, but it can't be the case until two other problems are fixed:

1) A large vassal (such as the entirety of France) should be VERY difficult to keep and VERY likely to rebel.
2) Ruling France directly should be VERY difficult and should lead to almost endless pretender and province rebellions. It should take at least a full generation to pacify.

Annexing is impossible due to OE. So that leaves vassalization. Which SHOULD be possible, but the vassal should not be easy to maintain. France should be an EXTREMELY difficult child.

If that was fixed, then I think yes, you should be able to enforce additional demands (and possibly full annexation) with 100% war score.

At the very least, there should be some options which are only available at 100%, such as releasing all eligible countries, or putting a friendly king (perhaps of your dynasty) on the throne.
 

Ruanek

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Historically speaking, Napoleon did vassalize entire large nations/areas quickly (Confederation of the Rhine, Spain). But they were very difficult to control. Some historians have credited Napoleon's desire for control of Spain as being one of the main reasons for his downfall. There's also the issue that aside from Napoleon and a few other scattered cases wars in this time period between large powers were far less decisive. In a lot of ways it doesn't make sense to include the Napoleonic period at all because it doesn't fit the game system as well.

France, or any other large power, would not consent to being a vassal, let alone not cause problems following outright annexation.

One of the things about the EU series is that it overemphasizes sieges. One of the reasons wars take so long in EU4 is that you have to spend years sieging every territory to get a high enough warscore. In some wars historically that could make sense, but in others it doesn't (e.g. the Ottomans conquering the Mamluks).
 

Red John

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I agree with the original poster that this should be the case, but it can't be the case until two other problems are fixed:

1) A large vassal (such as the entirety of France) should be VERY difficult to keep and VERY likely to rebel.
2) Ruling France directly should be VERY difficult and should lead to almost endless pretender and province rebellions. It should take at least a full generation to pacify.

Annexing is impossible due to OE. So that leaves vassalization. Which SHOULD be possible, but the vassal should not be easy to maintain. France should be an EXTREMELY difficult child.

If that was fixed, then I think yes, you should be able to enforce additional demands (and possibly full annexation) with 100% war score.

At the very least, there should be some options which are only available at 100%, such as releasing all eligible countries, or putting a friendly king (perhaps of your dynasty) on the throne.

Then the AE recquired must be astounding. Imagine how afraid Europe would be if Austria vassalized France.
 

AgentPaper

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I think the change needed to make this work would simply be to make large vassals more difficult to manage. At the moment, the only real difference between having a vassal and having land is that you don't get to control the troops directly in wars, and it takes up a diplo upkeep slot. There's basically no risk to it. If vassals could revolt or participate (to a limited degree) in politics as a separate entity, then that would make them much more interesting as a game mechanic, much less abusable, and allow for the system to be loosened up a bit more, such as allowing you to vassalize other countries more easily since vassalization is no longer guaranteed annexation, eventually.

I think the best way to do it, would be to allow a vassal to declare independence at any time, as long as they don't have a truce with their master. AI would only do it if they thought their overlord wasn't strong enough to protect them, of if they really hated them. When this happens, the former overlord gets a "Enforce Vassalage" CB that lets them re-vassalize them with no AE penalties and reduced WS cost. The CB would last a good number of years, maybe 5-10, so even if you do lose a war and lose a bunch of vassals, if you can recuperate your strength quickly enough, you can get them all back without too much pain.