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Bishop Arundel

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Dan Snow (a UK TV historian much disliked by uk paradoxians though I like him) recently got hatemail for publishing an article entitled the 10 myths of WWI

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/...ate-mail-for-debunking-World-War-I-myths.html

Dan Snow, the historian, has revealed he received hate mail for attempting to debunk the "myths" about the First World War, as he argues glorifying its "awfulness and tragedy" belittles the service of every other British soldier.

Snow, the television broadcaster, said he was abused by angry members of the public after trying to establish the truth about the conflict.
Speaking at Chalke Valley History Festival, he told an audience that painting the First World War as the worst conflict in British history could serve to "belittle" all soldiers serving in other conflicts.

The reality, he said, was "bad enough", adding: "That's why we need to remember it correctly."
Snow claimed he had received "hate mail" from the public after publishing a list debunking ten popular "myths" about the First World War earlier this year

...........

Snow added much of the hate mail had come from people who had "read their great-grandad's diary", a single source they took to heart but which contradicted the experience of the majority.

He now hopes to convince the public to stop considering the First World War as the biggest wartime tragedy in British history, saying to do so "belittles" the efforts of troops in Afghanistan and other conflicts.


the article is below

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25776836



Much of what we think we know about the 1914-18 conflict is wrong, writes historian Dan Snow.

No war in history attracts more controversy and myth than World War One.

For the soldiers who fought it was in some ways better than previous conflicts, and in some ways worse.

By setting it apart as uniquely awful we are blinding ourselves to the reality of not just WW1 but war in general. We are also in danger of belittling the experience of soldiers and civilians caught up in countless other appalling conflicts throughout history and the present day.

1. It was the bloodiest war in history to that point

Fifty years before WW1 broke out, southern China was torn apart by an even bloodier conflict. Conservative estimates of the dead in the 14-year Taiping rebellion start at between 20 million and 30 million. Around 17 million soldiers and civilians were killed during WW1.

Although more Britons died in WW1 than any other conflict, the bloodiest war in our history relative to population size is the Civil War, which raged in the mid-17th Century. A far higher proportion of the population of the British Isles were killed than the less than 2% who died in WW1. By contrast, around 4% of the population of England and Wales, and considerably more than that in Scotland and Ireland, are thought to have been killed in the Civil War.

2. Most soldiers died

In the UK around six million men were mobilised, and of those just over 700,000 were killed. That's around 11.5%.

In fact, as a British soldier you were more likely to die during the Crimean War (1853-56) than in WW1.

3. Men lived in the trenches for years on end

Front-line trenches could be a terribly hostile place to live. Units, often wet, cold and exposed to the enemy, would quickly lose their morale if they spent too much time in the trenches.

As a result, the British army rotated men in and out continuously. Between battles, a unit spent perhaps 10 days a month in the trench system and, of those, rarely more than three days right up on the front line. It was not unusual to be out of the line for a month.


During moments of crisis, such as big offensives, the British could occasionally spend up to seven days on the front line but were far more often rotated out after just a day or two.

4. The upper class got off lightly

Although the great majority of casualties in WW1 were from the working class, the social and political elite were hit disproportionately hard by WW1. Their sons provided the junior officers whose job it was to lead the way over the top and expose themselves to the greatest danger as an example to their men.

Some 12% of the British army's ordinary soldiers were killed during the war, compared with 17% of its officers. Eton alone lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served. UK wartime Prime Minister Herbert Asquith lost a son, while future Prime Minister Andrew Bonar Law lost two. Anthony Eden lost two brothers, another brother of his was terribly wounded, and an uncle was captured.

5. 'Lions led by donkeys'


This saying was supposed to have come from senior German commanders describing brave British soldiers led by incompetent old toffs from their chateaux. In fact the incident was made up by historian Alan Clark.

During the war more than 200 generals were killed, wounded or captured. Most visited the front lines every day. In battle they were considerably closer to the action than generals are today.

Naturally, some generals were not up to the job, but others were brilliant, such as Arthur Currie, a middle-class Canadian failed insurance broker and property developer.

Rarely in history have commanders had to adapt to a more radically different technological environment.

British commanders had been trained to fight small colonial wars; now they were thrust into a massive industrial struggle unlike anything the British army had ever seen.

Despite this, within three years the British had effectively invented a method of warfare still recognisable today. By the summer of 1918 the British army was probably at its best ever and it inflicted crushing defeats on the Germans.

6. Gallipoli was fought by Australians and New Zealanders

Far more British soldiers fought on the Gallipoli peninsula than Australians and New Zealanders put together.

The UK lost four or five times as many men in the brutal campaign as its imperial Anzac contingents. The French also lost more men than the Australians.

The Aussies and Kiwis commemorate Gallipoli ardently, and understandably so, as their casualties do represent terrible losses both as a proportion of their forces committed and of their small populations.

7. Tactics on the Western Front remained unchanged despite repeated failure

Never have tactics and technology changed so radically in four years of fighting. It was a time of extraordinary innovation. In 1914 generals on horseback galloped across battlefields as men in cloth caps charged the enemy without the necessary covering fire. Both sides were overwhelmingly armed with rifles. Four years later, steel-helmeted combat teams dashed forward protected by a curtain of artillery shells.

They were now armed with flame throwers, portable machine-guns and grenades fired from rifles. Above, planes, which in 1914 would have appeared unimaginably sophisticated, duelled in the skies, some carrying experimental wireless radio sets, reporting real-time reconnaissance.

Huge artillery pieces fired with pinpoint accuracy - using only aerial photos and maths they could score a hit on the first shot. Tanks had gone from the drawing board to the battlefield in just two years, also changing war for ever.

8. No-one won

Swathes of Europe lay wasted, millions were dead or wounded. Survivors lived on with severe mental trauma. The UK was broke. It is odd to talk about winning.

However, in a narrow military sense, the UK and its allies convincingly won. Germany's battleships had been bottled up by the Royal Navy until their crews mutinied rather than make a suicidal attack against the British fleet.

Germany's army collapsed as a series of mighty allied blows scythed through supposedly impregnable defences.

By late September 1918 the German emperor and his military mastermind Erich Ludendorff admitted that there was no hope and Germany must beg for peace. The 11 November Armistice was essentially a German surrender.

Unlike Hitler in 1945, the German government did not insist on a hopeless, pointless struggle until the allies were in Berlin - a decision that saved countless lives, but was seized upon later to claim Germany never really lost.

9. The Treaty of Versailles was extremely harsh

The Treaty of Versailles confiscated 10% of Germany's territory but left it the largest, richest nation in central Europe.

It was largely unoccupied and financial reparations were linked to its ability to pay, which mostly went unenforced anyway.

The treaty was notably less harsh than treaties that ended the 1870-71 Franco-Prussian War and World War Two. The German victors in the former annexed large chunks of two rich French provinces, part of France for between 200 and 300 years, and home to most of French iron ore production, as well as presenting France with a massive bill for immediate payment.

After WW2 Germany was occupied, split up, its factory machinery smashed or stolen and millions of prisoners forced to stay with their captors and work as slave labourers. Germany lost all the territory it had gained after WW1 and another giant slice on top of that.

Versailles was not harsh but was portrayed as such by Hitler, who sought to create a tidal wave of anti-Versailles sentiment on which he could then ride into power.

10. Everyone hated it

Like any war, it all comes down to luck. You may witness unimaginable horrors that leave you mentally and physically incapacitated for life, or you might get away without a scrape. It could be the best of times, or the worst of times.

Many soldiers enjoyed WW1. If they were lucky they would avoid a big offensive, and much of the time conditions might be better than at home.

For the British there was meat every day - a rare luxury back home - cigarettes, tea and rum, part of a daily diet of more than 4,000 calories.

Remarkably, absentee rates due to sickness, an important barometer of a unit's morale, were hardly above those of peacetime. Many young men enjoyed the guaranteed pay, the intense comradeship, the responsibility and a much greater sexual freedom than in peacetime Britain.
 

DoomBunny

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Dan Snow is not a real historian.
 

Stuckenschmidt

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DoomBunny

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Citation needed.

Oh, wait, got it:

A) Modern history, so what's he doing talking about warfare?
B) A degree does not make you a historian.
C) Dan Snow is, regardless of anything and everything to the contrary, not a real historian.

Out of interest, anyone know a way to read his dissertation. Sounds like it might be a laugh.
 

Stuckenschmidt

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Out of interest, anyone know a way to read his dissertation. Sounds like it might be a laugh.

Since he can`t be more prejudiced and out-of-touch with reality than you, everyone is better off to read your posts to have a good laugh.
 

99KingHigh

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Why the hate?
 

Easy-Kill

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Why the hate?

Why Dommbunny's hate for Dan Snow? He is trying to be edgy and ostentatious and prove how little he can contribute to the discussion.

Regarding Dan Snow, he clearly isn't a scholarly historian, but as a TV personality he is very talented at raising and discussing certain issues with some degree of competence. He is also a continuing contributor to raising history as an important subject both within the British media and with the British youth.
 

DoomBunny

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Since he can`t be more prejudiced and out-of-touch with reality than you, everyone is better off to read your posts to have a good laugh.

They're welcome to. Though I wouldn't really describe myself as prejudiced, nor do I see how this case could be used to describe me as such. It would indicate that I have never read/viewed Dan Snow's work. To the contrary, I have read/viewed much of it, and make a point of doing so whenever it is free. It's worthwhile few seconds of my time to laugh at it.

Why the hate?

Dan Snow, whilst generally not factually inaccurate, contributes very little to the world of history. Most of his stuff is in no way new, it's often full of irritating attempts to appeal to the "general public", and is generally just bad.

Why Dommbunny's hate for Dan Snow? He is trying to be edgy and ostentatious and prove how little he can contribute to the discussion.

I'm so edgy I'm a sphere.
 

Easy-Kill

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Dan Snow, whilst generally not factually inaccurate, contributes very little to the world of history. Most of his stuff is in no way new, it's often full of irritating attempts to appeal to the "general public", and is generally just bad.

His list of awards would disagree with you.
Wikipedia said:
BAFTA (Visual Effects) for 'Battlefield Britain'
BAFTA Cymru (Best Presenter) for 'Hadrian'
Maritime Media Award for best television, film or radio for 'Empire of the Seas'
2011 History Makers Award (Most Innovative Production) for 'Battle for North America' a 1 hour special on Snow's book 'Death or Victory.' Produced by Snow's production company Ballista
Voice of the Listener & Viewer Special Award 2013

He has never claimed to be a scholarly historian, but he does try to present a view which challenges accepted public perception. This in itself contributes more than your incessant bitching about him.

I'm so edgy I'm a sphere.

Turds are also quite spherical.
 

DoomBunny

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His list of awards would disagree with you.

Well, not that awards really mean anything, but only one of those you listed is actually to do with the quality of his history. Visual effects, TV personality, innovation, viewer opinion, those aren't to do with the history itself.

He has never claimed to be a scholarly historian, but he does try to present a view which challenges accepted public perception.

One wonders why.

This in itself contributes more than your incessant bitching about him.

Incessant bitching? Hardly either.

Turds are also quite spherical.

So are Oranges. Your point?
 

Herbert West

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How in the name of Mars was Versailles less harsh than the 1871 Paris treaty?
 

Easy-Kill

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Well, not that awards really mean anything, but only one of those you listed is actually to do with the quality of his history. Visual effects, TV personality, innovation, viewer opinion, those aren't to do with the history itself.
I don't know, I have a few awards and they mean a lot to me. They give me letters after my name and add weight to my CV over somebody who has won no awards. Regardless of your opinion which is generally 'prejudiced and out-of-touch with reality' (As Stuckenschmidt put it), he is well regarded enough to be paid a lot of money to speak on TV.

One wonders why.
Of course you wonder why. You are 'prejudiced and out of touch of reality' as Stuckenschmidt said ;)

Incessant bitching? Hardly either.
So why do you come on here and whine (without making either discernible, clear or contributory point) every time Dan Snow is mentioned?

So are Oranges. Your point?
We aren't talking about points, but edges (or spherical like objects trying to pretend to be like them).
 

Dewirix

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DoomBunny

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I don't know, I have a few awards and they mean a lot to me. They give me letters after my name and add weight to my CV over somebody who has won no awards. Regardless of your opinion which is generally 'prejudiced and out-of-touch with reality' (As Stuckenschmidt put it), he is well regarded enough to be paid a lot of money to speak on TV.

Popularity has little to do with quality.

Of course you wonder why. You are 'prejudiced and out of touch of reality' as Stuckenschmidt said ;)

Out of touch? Nope, I'm fairly sure I'm touching it right now. And it's enjoying it.

So why do you come on here and whine (without making either discernible, clear or contributory point) every time Dan Snow is mentioned?

I don't. Simple as that.

We aren't talking about points, but edges (or spherical like objects trying to pretend to be like them).

Spherical like objects pretending to be spherical? Heresy.

A serious question though, how can one pretend to be edgy? I mean, it's like pretending to pretend you're a dog.

How in the name of Mars was Versailles less harsh than the 1871 Paris treaty?

REVISIONISM!
 

Arilou

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he is well regarded enough to be paid a lot of money to speak on TV.

So is the people on Jersey Shore.

Just sayin'.

He does seem to be one of those guys that presents scholarly stuff that's old hat as new in a fairly sensationalist manner though.
 

Doukan

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How in the name of Mars was Versailles less harsh than the 1871 Paris treaty?
Because iron ore and 300 years apparently.
This Snow fellow clearly doesn't know nothing, though his stance on most of these myths" is more a clever weaselling than actual debunking.
That said, anyone who says the ToV wasn't harsh can GTFO (unless they're on this forum and argue in very long perfectly formatted walls of text in the appropriate other threads that is :p).
 

Arilou

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Because iron ore and 300 years apparently.
This Snow fellow clearly doesn't know nothing, though his stance on most of these myths" is more a clever weaselling than actual debunking.
That said, anyone who says the ToV wasn't harsh can GTFO (unless they're on this forum and argue in very long perfectly formatted walls of text in the appropriate other threads that is :p).

Versailles specifically wasn't that harsh. (some of the other treaties, like Trianon and Sevres, were) Brest-Litovsk was harsher for instance.
 

DoomBunny

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Versailles specifically wasn't that harsh. (some of the other treaties, like Trianon and Sevres, were) Brest-Litovsk was harsher for instance.

Relative to some treaties, maybe. However, that doesn't stop it being a rather harsh treaty. Losing a leg is still a grievous injury, even if less grievous than losing both.

That being said, Versailles is, in my opinion, more flawed from a point of double standards and conflicting ideas than it is by being too harsh.
 

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Versailles specifically wasn't that harsh. (some of the other treaties, like Trianon and Sevres, were) Brest-Litovsk was harsher for instance.
Oh yes those other treaties were super nasty.
Doesn't make Versailles itself any less http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/misc.php?do=bbcode#s badhttp://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/misc.php?do=bbcode#shttp://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/misc.php?do=bbcode#s severe though, it could have been much more damaging and still not been as "wrong" though IMO.
Definitely not an Imperial Germany recihofile
 

Arilou

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Relative to some treaties, maybe. However, that doesn't stop it being a rather harsh treaty. Losing a leg is still a grievous injury, even if less grievous than losing both.

That being said, Versailles is, in my opinion, more flawed from a point of double standards and conflicting ideas than it is by being too harsh.

Meh, for Germany it was more like a flesh wound. Painful and annoying, but not actually crippling.