1-Stop using customers as QA, 2-dev clashes as balancing reference and 3-missions as power-creeping

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erneiz_hyde

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It would, yes, and WC players have been advocating for smarter AI since forever, mind you. But, since the advice came from WC players, they were all ignored. The devs only listens to the anti-blobbers, and the outrcries of average players that were collateral damage to results that the anti-blobbers advocated. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "AI has too much money" and brought about the ruin of AI's economic abilities. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "mercs too OP" and brought about the current awful merc mechanics and ruin AI economic even further. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "blobbing is too powerful" and brought about territory corruption, which thankfully is gone now. It was always you guys, and the dev's awkward attempts to meet those demands.
 
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Lightwell

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It was always you guys, and the dev's awkward attempts to meet those demands.

Even within your own examples, it's pretty clear where the problem comes from.

The game having way too much money available (especially through trade) combined with the AI having such good spending habits and control over its income that it made it nearly impossible to inflict economic damage. There was a problem, but the devs resolved it poorly.

Mercenaries were OP, dude. They're an infinite source of manpower in a game about conquest, and the only limit is your monthly income. The new merc system has issues, but it also has limits to keep it in check. It'll be properly balanced after a few passes, and it reminds the player to actually pay attention to manpower outside the early game.

And yes, blobbing is too powerful. This game doesn't model the fall of Empires outside of a few select cases (American nations, MoH holder, some hordes), and all gains are permanent boons to your nation. There's absolutely nothing that actually threatens a large blob unless they have a weak navy. After a certain point, you start making so much money that it means absolutely nothing to you, and attacks on your economy mean nothing. Loans are meaningless, the army is large and mobile enough to bully anyone for funsies, enemy nations provide nothing from Trade Wars, and by the mid-1600s, you could have all of China paying taxes to you without it meaning anything. Territory Corruption was just a poor solution to the problem, and Government Capacity does a better job of dealing with the issue.
 
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Stratagyfan101

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It would, yes, and WC players have been advocating for smarter AI since forever, mind you. But, since the advice came from WC players, they were all ignored. The devs only listens to the anti-blobbers, and the outrcries of average players that were collateral damage to results that the anti-blobbers advocated. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "AI has too much money" and brought about the ruin of AI's economic abilities. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "mercs too OP" and brought about the current awful merc mechanics and ruin AI economic even further. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "blobbing is too powerful" and brought about territory corruption, which thankfully is gone now. It was always you guys, and the dev's awkward attempts to meet those demands.

The current mercenary mechanics have a much more solid foundation that the previous mechanics. The problem is the AI is dumb, and Paradox did the same stupid thing where they made bigger countries have more mercs. Limiting mercenaries instead of having the unlimited pool of soldiers is better design, but the rest of thegame needs to update with it. We can't have these long drawn out slugfest of wars if manpower is going to be a premium.
 
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grommile

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This game doesn't model the fall of Empires outside of a few select cases
When the people who want it start demanding realistic implementation, we can talk.
 
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newtlord

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It would, yes, and WC players have been advocating for smarter AI since forever, mind you. But, since the advice came from WC players, they were all ignored. The devs only listens to the anti-blobbers, and the outrcries of average players that were collateral damage to results that the anti-blobbers advocated. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "AI has too much money" and brought about the ruin of AI's economic abilities. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "mercs too OP" and brought about the current awful merc mechanics and ruin AI economic even further. It wasn't the blobbers that complained "blobbing is too powerful" and brought about territory corruption, which thankfully is gone now. It was always you guys, and the dev's awkward attempts to meet those demands.

Everyone has been begging for a better AI since forever. The problem isn't the "anti-blobbers" wanting a weak AI (why on earth would they, anyway?), the problem is Paradox being unwilling to put in large amounts of hard work for something that can't be sold as a DLC.

As to whether Paradox only listens to "anti-blobbers".... one of the features of the most recent DLC- hegemonies- only appear for people who are well on their way to world conquest (yes, hegemonies are badly implemented, but so is everything this DLC cycle).
 
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Lightwell

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When the people who want it start demanding realistic implementation, we can talk.

Already have, in a number of threads. Ultimately, everyone was able to agree that "Realistic" causes for Empires falling would be unpopular, as real-life Empires often rose much faster than this game allows, and with all the effort it takes to grow and maintain an Empire, players would throw a fit if it was easily forced into a state of decline over minor things.
 
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Stratagyfan101

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When the people who want it start demanding realistic implementation, we can talk.

So you mean since before EU3 Divine Wind? People have been demanding something to do during peace time other than plan the next conquest for some time. For over a decade now there has been demand for a rudimentary pop system in this franchise. Paradox almost got close to making internal mechanics with parliaments, government reforms and estates but of course all three mechanics are entirely divorced from one another, and function by hitting a button, getting a benefit, and then waiting to hit the button again. I mean the very first government reform is about the privileges of the nobility and has nothing to do with the new privileges mechanic.

I'm not holding my breath though because fixing the game doesn't sell DLCs. Adding more feature bloat sells DLCs. EU4 was a very solid foundation but the PAradox DLC policy ensured that its development would result in this haphazard mess of divorced features, single use currencies that could easily be replaced with ducats and monarch points, and bad AI that can barely use half the features. The new estate mechanic is just the old mission system with the mil, admin, diplo options we all suggested years ago.
 
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klingonadmiral

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Overextension: just stay below 100

You don't even have to if you are tag with high CCR and unrest reduction.

And even if, the worst OE does is give you a little unrest.

The truce rotation dance is a significant aspect of coalition avoidance for blobbers.

Non-blobbers don't need it because they don't expand fast enough to trigger coalitions.

And then there's me, who sits between the two camps.

When the people who want it start demanding realistic implementation, we can talk.

The game can't model the decline of Empires. Partially beecause players shouldn't be punished for being succesful, partially because for 10 empires collapsing there are 15 different reasons.
 
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grommile

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And even if, the worst OE does is give you a little unrest.
Not quite; it gives you some fairly nasty events as well (especially if you go ham).
And then there's me, who sits between the two camps.
Then you're a casual blobber :)
The game can't model the decline of Empires. Partially beecause players shouldn't be punished for being succesful, partially because for 10 empires collapsing there are 15 different reasons.
It could model the factors behind the failure of territorially expansive countries better than it does.

It could even remain fun and WC-compliant while doing so.

It's just a lot of work.
 
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klingonadmiral

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Not quite; it gives you some fairly nasty events as well (especially if you go ham).

The worst of which is separatist sentiment, which gives unrest. ;P

Most of the others are pretty manageable.

It could model the factors behind the failure of territorially expansive countries better than it does.

The easiest way would be to make most territory budget-negative. Which would rustle a lot of jimmies.
 
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I was and still am in the camp for more interesting internal empire management, fighting enemies on the inside instead of on the outside constantly. I enjoy a specific way of railroading, something in between, not to much but not to little. The reason i got into this game was it offered what CiV never did, some historical resemblence. Like historical rivals, railroaded events and disasters just so i can experience them, roll with them, try to prevent them, fight them, read the flavour text and learn about them etc.
Last campaign as Bourgogne I finally got Marie and she died during hunting accident at 26 of age, welp that's a little bit too much historical accuracy for me (thank god the game mysteriously crashed)

Point is however, most of the changes they did to gut degenerate map painting never actually made the game deeper or more interesting. It made it in fact even more degenerate by reducing the fun ways the game can be played. The beauty was always achievements that could be done in X different ways. Being quick and cycling truces with maximum resource efficiency or just playing it slow and waiting until 1700s no coring range age bonus and knock everything out then

Corruption is the prime example of the most degenerate addition to the game just to neuter blobbing, but it doesnt neuter blobbing, it neuters everything, it makes no sense it literally adds nothing to the game, its just there to be unfun and thats it, I wish they'd just delete it, seriously whats the point of corruption?

Then all the powercreeped perma claims mission that makes me feel like I am using workshop mods. If i am supposed to pay 10 bucks for basically just mission trees I want some burgundy succession crisis level of events and not HoI invasion plans for half of europe or w/e area just got updated.

Estates are finally fun to use, now we only need culture like M.&Taxes and there is actually stuff to do during peace. Diplomacy needs a huge overhaul away from the 4 diplo slot system and to a mechanic similar to gvt. cap points (which I really liked, I managed to form GER with Prussian gvt. without going over the cap which was fun).

Rebel system needs a huge overhaul for interesting realm management (which will never come), they are like moths in the dark with the electric swatter lamp turned on, its a freaking joke they dont even pretend to act like humans and it takes my entire mental capacity to feel the slightes sense of immersion cleaning that trash out every couple years.

Republics still kinda lackluster but what can you do.

WC and Tall play should be equally viable and fun, tho i'd argue that going the more historical route should be the "intended way" and doing heavy ahistorical moves should be a real challenge but still doable instead of the only way to play besides sitting on speed 5 waiting for s*it to happen.
 
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grommile

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Estates are finally fun to use
There's a difference between "not anti-fun" and "actually fun", and estates only meet the first criterion. (Which is an improvement!)
 
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There's a difference between "not anti-fun" and "actually fun", and estates only meet the first criterion. (Which is an improvement!)
The estates are a step in the right direction. Personally, I would've had estates make minor demands of you regardless of whether you called the Diet or not (requesting +autonomy to X province, requesting that you hire a specific advisor type, etc). You might be playing as "The State," but in 1444 The State has bills to pay.
 
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kgmi

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The estates are a step in the right direction. Personally, I would've had estates make minor demands of you regardless of whether you called the Diet or not (requesting +autonomy to X province, requesting that you hire a specific advisor type, etc). You might be playing as "The State," but in 1444 The State has bills to pay.

The only issue i have with them when they give you stuff thats literally impossible to fulfill, like "100 relations with mamluks" when you are sitting at -80 with them, or "40% trade power in node X" where you would need like 300 lights to even come close with your 1 louse CoT city in 1480
 
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Secuter

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I'm not holding my breath though because fixing the game doesn't sell DLCs. Adding more feature bloat sells DLCs. EU4 was a very solid foundation but the PAradox DLC policy ensured that its development would result in this haphazard mess of divorced features, single use currencies that could easily be replaced with ducats and monarch points, and bad AI that can barely use half the features. The new estate mechanic is just the old mission system with the mil, admin, diplo options we all suggested years ago.

You're completely right. I suspect that one of the massive problems that comes with this asinine DLC policy is that it becomes almost impossible to do what your players want or even compare how un/happy your players are. Maybe player 1 only has 3 DLC's while player 2 has 5 and player 3 have all of them. Their experiences differs a lot. You also touched on a key problem here, which is part of what the differences in player ownership; it is impossible to make the DLC's interact much with each other because that makes into a DLC for DLC policy, which is probably even worse. In turn, this means that their load of spam-like DLC's never will make the game any deeper. It will just provide a bit of extra, but in the end very shallow, content.
 
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grommile

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In turn, this means that their load of spam-like DLC's never will make the game any deeper. It will just provide a bit of extra, but in the end very shallow, content.
The DLC policy worked quite well for CK2, but there are specific reasons why it was a good fit for CK2, and I think Paradox neglected that point when they applied the same policy to EU4.
 
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The DLC policy worked quite well for CK2, but there are specific reasons why it was a good fit for CK2, and I think Paradox neglected that point when they applied the same policy to EU4.

I disagree, it didn't fit CK2 much either. It ran into the very same problems that I've just described. Like the retainer DLC - which allowed you to have a retinue. The problem was that it was implemented regardless of you buying it or not, you just couldn't use them, but the AI could. It still also ran into the problem that your players all had widely different experiences as they had various amounts of the DLC spam.

Generally, if we look at the feedback on steam, we will quickly notice that many of their DLC's has either "negative" or "mixed" reviews. Those are both things you should strive to avoid.
 
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Akbar The Great

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So you mean since before EU3 Divine Wind? People have been demanding something to do during peace time other than plan the next conquest for some time. For over a decade now there has been demand for a rudimentary pop system in this franchise. Paradox almost got close to making internal mechanics with parliaments, government reforms and estates but of course all three mechanics are entirely divorced from one another, and function by hitting a button, getting a benefit, and then waiting to hit the button again. I mean the very first government reform is about the privileges of the nobility and has nothing to do with the new privileges mechanic.

I'm not holding my breath though because fixing the game doesn't sell DLCs. Adding more feature bloat sells DLCs. EU4 was a very solid foundation but the PAradox DLC policy ensured that its development would result in this haphazard mess of divorced features, single use currencies that could easily be replaced with ducats and monarch points, and bad AI that can barely use half the features. The new estate mechanic is just the old mission system with the mil, admin, diplo options we all suggested years ago.


This is the best post I've read on here in a while. Shovel the content on, ignore the fundamental problems with the game, in particular the AI and watch the money roll in instead.

I've gone from a day 1, without giving it a thought DLC/game buyer, to an ex-customer from IR onwards. After the disaster that was Rome TW 2, I vowed never again to pre-order/buy on release anything ever again, I foolishly still trusted PDS and pre-ordered IR, I thought "Ah PDS they won't let me down..."

It will be VERY interesting to see what CK3 is like on release.
 
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Leoreth

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I had hoped estates would be more something that actually pushes back against you, makes demands of you that are not easy to fulfill, and where I would have to make some tough choices between angering an estate and pursuing my own agenda, and in picking a few estates to favour at the expense of the others.

Even something that I thought would be more challenging, transitioning out of estates based feudalism into absolutism, is absolutely trivial to do, with no pushback at all.

Now estates are less of a hassle than previously, but they are still in no way a challenge unless you get very unlucky coincidences or ignore them completely. They're still a bonus farm with trivial, almost perfunctory requirements.
 
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