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suggestions, Empire of Sin,

Uncle_Pablos

Corporal
Jan 13, 2021
49
38
Main problem of Empire of SIn: Broken difficulty curve


In short, this problems of Empire of Sin stem from design choices limiting gameplay only to combat related activity, and giving player all of the benefits from the start. In comparison, lets see how the difficulty curve is designed in other tactical RPG games.

XCOM and XCOM2, always gives every advantage to the AI opponent, this creates a constant arms race, of research, training, building and recruiting better and better tools for the missions. But even then, XCOM keeps throwing curve balls into players plans, such as major country leaving the project for reasons unknown to players, aliens increase the number and strength of their attacks and inducing panic, so that player, even with combat parity, can not react everywhere at once. So when you pick your battles, and somehow deliver the killing blow, it feels good.​
XCOM 2 keeps same pace, but then drops the final countdown of project Avatar, that will finish the game if left unchecked. Even if the War of Chosen has broken importance of that mechanics, its still remains an important reminder that your opposition is actively seeking your demise. When you overcome it, it feels well deserved and good.​
XCOM: Chimera squad, limits our squad to 4 troopers versus at least double the number of opponents. Phantom Doctrine, follows the xcom formula, but in addition makes combat extremely lethal, even with basic guns. This is forcing player to use brute force only as last resort.​
Jagged Alliance 2, had different approach. It started player in a very weak position, with handful of mercenaries, basic weapons and small amount of cash against an entire army. However each attacks we made, and each town we captured gave us more resources and support. Training our militia and assisting them in combat against superior enemy forces was in our direct interest. If we'd lose Drassen airport, we'd not be able to quickly reinforce our troops, or if mines were lost, that would hit our weekly income. Or if SAM site was taken over, we are unable to airdrop our units across entire map. In a way, its a classic dungeon RPG approach implemented on the bigger scale. The close we got the Queen, the more difficult became the opposition, and more and more retaliation strikes we had deal with, across the whole area. (Those blackshirt commandos with rocket rifles still give me PTSD). But with every step, player got better and better troops, guns and information about enemy's actions. The final battle was a culmination of all your efforts during campaign. That felt good.​

And how does Empire if Sin do its difficulty curve? At first you start with a Boss that can single handedly kill up to 6 goons in one round of combat. Then you find stupid amount of “rare” guns, that make anyone who wields them into a combat monster. Then you remove any kind challenge from expanding your empire by allowing player to grab entire empire of your opponent, just by hitting the enemy Boss. And when they all fall, one by one to your blunt “kill em all” approach, you feel meh. It was not such a difficult fight.

In addition game has literally a free money exploits, that AI is obeying to. On top of everything else, POLICE DOES NOTHING! So, whatever you do, there is no retaliation. When you go into the war with other mobs, they have zero chances of winning against player, since player solves all wars by directly taking out the boss in first fight. So basically, the whole game, with all its complex systems boils down to boss fights. Which are no different from any fight on the street, bar or alley. It seems to me, that developers have not looked at any other games that has been released in this genre for the last several years. Several of them have brought a much welcomed innovation into stale xcom formula.


Namely, look at the XCOM: Chimera squad. Every mission there is very focused small scale (no more than a 2-3 rooms) close combat. With identical to Empire of Sin system of Initiative, it pull off the thrill of SWAT or Rainbow Six: Siege in the same turn based format. But to be completely honest their Boss battles, are following same pattern as all combat encounters, but still its much more interesting than breaking into same Safehouse every time (yes, all of them are identical between all bosses, with 3 slight variations). In addition, every time you attack the Boss house, you find the most powerful enemy, isolated and almost never using his game breaking powers on players.


Or look at very underappreciated OTHERCIDE. The boss battles there are insanely difficult, but only when you mastered you troops, or found enemy's weak spot you can hope to prevail. But the challenge is there. If I'd be a casual player, who is looking for power fantasy, then Empire of Sin would satisfy me. But I've spent my life cursing at the monitor for missing 90% shots, and still want more. Challenge me!


How I'd fix the game:

If you reached so far in my ramblings, you might think I do not like Empire of Sin. But, I'm afraid that this game have followed tradition of other Paradox games: get released as a half-baked, half-tested vision of the game, only to become what it had to be some 48 patches later. So what a smartass like me would have changed in order to make Empire of Sin better.

  1. Balance the Bosses:

    Lower HP of every Boss to a 45, in order to make them equal to Gangsters. Retain initial combat abilities, they are too good to lose. Allows Bosses to learn other than combat talents, such as lowering percentage on upkeep, ratios on rackets, safe house deflection, political influence, intimidation ect. Increase Bosses HP by 20 per level, this way by the end of the game you have a really tough guy, but its balanced against serious competition.
  2. Change game Victory conditions:

    In my opinion, Empire of Sin is not about total war, or booze businesses, its about staying power in very hostile environment. Victory conditions must reflect that. So allow for different path to victory: most money, most Notoriety, most positive Public Image, most influence in the police, most political influence (measured in bought politicians, senators and other government officials). In addition, add a possibility of other factions to remain, but be subservient to you. This way you do not have to kill your way up, you can make a lasting alliances and become Capo del Tuti.( Italian for Supreme Don).
  3. Change sitdown mechanics:

    Sitdowns are great way of showing the true strengths of Bosses. But in order to complement the solution to problem of 100% information, sitdowns need to change in some aspects. First, if Bosses do not have an established friendly relationship, the sitdown must take place in some public space, most likely hotel. This way, secrecy of safe house remains, and player who initiates the sitdown may choose a better place for conversation, or let others players know, where the meeting takes place. Bosses will not have sitdowns until player reaches certain Notoriety level, thus proving their worth to them. That threshhold must be different for all Bosses, in order to avoid the overflow of invitations and allow for individual Boss strategy to unfold.
  4. Change the way hiring of gangster:

    Allow player to hire gangster on at least 3 different terms:
    1. Unlimited time: same as now, for % of the earnings
    2. Short-term: gangster works for specified number of days/weeks and for agreed sum of money. Perfect for hiring a highly skilled hitman before sitdown.
    3. Task specific: gangster works for specified time doing one of the specified jobs: training security, improving management, running a scam, gathering intel, approaching police for bribery or finding where is the enemy safehouse.
  5. Implement hidden rackets:

    Hide all of the rackets from the players view, unless they have been investigated or visited by members of your crew and they have found to whom they belong. (Test against Deflect.) Same applies to safe houses. Hide all information that is unknown to player from the Production and other information panels. Information must be gathered in order to be visible! This make Moles more valuable, as only they can provide info on location and earnings.
  6. CHANGE THE EMPIRE TAKE OVER RULES!

    When player or AI has successfully taken out the opponent, then rackets change ownership in the following order: 50% to surviving Underboss, 40% to surviving Advisor, 25% to surviving Lieutenants, 10% to Allied faction, 10% to Enemy faction that knows the location of the rackets and has nearby rackets or gangsters. Underboss and others create their own minor faction, and may be bargained with. If no command structure left, then unknown rackets are changed into derelicts with thugs possession, if they had security below 3rd level. Rackets changed into legal business if it had Ambience or Security over 4th level.

  7. Add a non-combat skill tree

    Every gangster or boss needs to have a management tree instead of half-hidden traits, with certain skills that modify income, spending, information gathering, upgrades or even district bonus. These skill should work when character is assigned to safehouse or particular racket. This way player will have a clear need to assign those tasks, instead of simply running around town with its tireless gang. But make sure that not everyone is born a manager.


  8. Balance the economy and spawn point

    Limit number of available rackets per district, this creates a tougher competition between all players. Make sure every major faction has its own starting location, at least one district away from others, so that initial opposition is presented only by minor factions. Limit the volume of trade between the major factions in accordance to levels of trust between the factions. This removes an exploit of players robbing the AI from all cash and guns right before they storm the last safe house, and make long term alliances more important and viable. In addition, it lowers the risk of players abusing the trade system. Make the treachery of selling swill (or any other alcohol) disguised as something else know to all other factions. Its a risky businesses, but words get around, and Bosses should be less trusting to players actions.
  9. Change the police!

    Make the police system, dangerous and ever present threat! This requires an incremental, step by step ladder of threat and influence and trust from all Bosses in the city, towards the police and each other. You cant just dump money, and overnight become Honorary Deputy, if yesterday you were a Public Enemy! Allow for random raids, inspections and infiltration from them. If anything, copy the system of Dark events from XCOM 2, its a very good basis. If anything, add some POLICE STATIONS into the game!
  10. Add Public Image to the game:

    Empire of Sin desperately needs a system of public image of our Boss in the game in addition to Notoriety among gangsters . If history is of any example, Al Capone, has been known to be gangster, but he went to jail for tax evasion, as any self-respecting American businessman can, in order to protect his wider empire. If you donate to charities, publish good-willed articles, visit public gathering like theaters or political meeting, people will trust you more, even if you deal in illegal booze. When people trust you (aka district loyalty is higher for you, than others) then its easier to gather information about opponents rackets, movements or attacks (that includes police). In addition you Public Image should affect how other Bosses see you, for example traditionalist like Genna or Mr.Donovan , would support you if you solve problems with your lawyers and good word. While others may think, you are in bed with authorities.
Those 10 points are minimal fixes, in my humble opinion to make this lovely game into a diamond it deserves to be. Thank you for reading my ramblings. If you name happens to be Brenda Romero, then I'd like to express my personal gratitude for your work on Jagged Alliance series. Its one of the greatest games ever made.
 
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Excellent suggestions! I agree with the lot. Reflects a lot of the feedback I've been seeing and I'd love to see this in the game.
thank you! i was hoping to be constructive, but before i knew it i was writing 4 page review. :) so after some cutting, thats the main points I'd like to highlight. there so much more can be added to this game, to make it an ultimate mafia sim... I should stop here. Other people on this forum have pointed out good things to improve and add.
 
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This is great insight @Uncle_Pablos. Thanks so much for taking the time to offer such comprehensive feedback! I'm curious, did you jot down the points as they came to you, or are the numbers in terms of how essential you feel the points are?
 
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This is great insight @Uncle_Pablos. Thanks so much for taking the time to offer such comprehensive feedback! I'm curious, did you jot down the points as they came to you, or are the numbers in terms of how essential you feel the points are?
Numbers were lets say "inspired" by my observation and research into hostile takeovers of certain companies, and observation on how some companies were trying to survive bankruptcy and other dissolution problems. As the rule of thumb, anyone who is 2nd in command or close, has the biggest chance of consolidation actives and power, but usually limited by various factors. so thats how I came to 40% mark. The rest is just variables changing with specifics of situation. But for a game perspective, I'd say its better to have a solid numerical base, from there you can easily implement changes, if they are needed.
 
There are some really good suggestions here. Nicely done..

I especially like the idea of hidden rackets. Anything that adds additional strategic levels to the game is a good thing to consider. As it is, you can scout the whole city in about 20 minutes and then it feels like there's nothing new to find. Anything that promotes exploration (especially when there's risk involved) would be a nice improvement.

Regarding #6 Change the Empire Take Over Rules, I'm sure that could be tricky since the main bosses are all voiced. However, having a dynamically generated minor faction (something like "The Alley Cats Leftovers" or something like that) could be a cool way to add to the story of your game.
 
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I'd definitely vote for the additional victory conditions, at the moment the single path to victory drives gameplay style, and players only follow other paths because they want to even though it doesn't actually help them win the game.
In terms of sit-down mechanics, I'd like to see more nuanced negotiations, with more options, such as 'you stay out x district and I'll stay out of y', 'I don't need your racket bonuses, but pay me $x instead'. This sort of leads to a merging of the sit-down and trading mechanics.
 
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I fully agree with all your suggestions but especially 1, 2 and 9.
my suggestion to improve difficulty and gameplay would be to limit the number of gangsters you can take into battle in interior/safe house combat.
Similar to Omertà or Xcom.
In Omerta you were limited to 4 regardless of the first mission or last mission. (Having 4 got difficult end game not because AI was intelligent or tough but because I was outnumbered allowing them to chip away)
In Xcom/2 you start with 4 and can increase to 6 (maybe you can gain a 5th at 400 notoriety and a 6th at 800 notoriety in EOS).
I have taken 8 or 9 gangsters into battle for giggles and they just clutter the doorway of a safe house and annihilate most goons round one.
I admit im terrible at these games but I’m sure every time the game gets more difficult a pro will just add another gangster to the fight if required. The loss of a gangster is not felt when you have another 7 in battle.

My other suggestion would be as I have seen a lot of kill chain being over powered in forums maybe it sticks by what the picture shows and you can only kill a max of 3 enemies at a time.
 
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Regarding #6 Change the Empire Take Over Rules, I'm sure that could be tricky since the main bosses are all voiced. However, having a dynamically generated minor faction (something like "The Alley Cats Leftovers" or something like that) could be a cool way to add to the story of your game.
If main Boss is dead, then he is dead. I think we can agree that a generated minor faction does not need a voiced Boss.
 
In terms of sit-down mechanics, I'd like to see more nuanced negotiations, with more options, such as 'you stay out x district and I'll stay out of y', 'I don't need your racket bonuses, but pay me $x instead'. This sort of leads to a merging of the sit-down and trading mechanics.
It having an established turf, would require an overhaul of some game systems, but i think its doable. I like your idea on having more detailed negotiations, but developer should decide on the main focus of EoS, is an RPG or Tactical combat, or grand strategy. At the moment its tactical combat with added 10% time spend on business arrangements.
 
The loss of a gangster is not felt when you have another 7 in battle.

My other suggestion would be as I have seen a lot of kill chain being over powered in forums maybe it sticks by what the picture shows and you can only kill a max of 3 enemies at a time.
I think there shoud not be a artificial limitation on how many enemies player goons can kill, it takes away players control and skill. But i do believe there should be a limit on how many gangsters you bring into a fight or a squad. Having a vehicle is a good way to do that. You cant put more than 5 guys into Ford T or any other road car. Unless you bring a truck. Or unless like in Omerta you are limited to 4 goon + support team.

Thank you for bringing up Omerta. I felt very old thinking that none heard about that game, which has been released over 7 years ago.