1.9 German Economy Benchmark Thread

[porta80]

Just for the fun i did also a meme run just economy nothing else.
144 civ
94 mils
11 synth
21 docks
2.525.900 if my calculator is right ;-)

 

[Simon_9732495]

Just for the fun i did also a meme run just economy nothing else.
144 civ
94 mils
11 synth
21 docks
2.525.900 if my calculator is right ;-)

Wow, over 2.5m

Can you tell us how you did it? (national focus sequence, sequence of laws and advisors, use of research buffs)

 

[porta80]

Wow, over 2.5m

Can you tell us how you did it? (national focus sequence, sequence of laws and advisors, use of research buffs)

Rhineland
4 year plan
Autarky
Hermann Göring
The next 6 civ Fokus
Reichsautobahn
Anschluss
All of the dockyard focus (there are more then just 5 docks, 6 additional ;-))
War economy
Sometime later then Memel and then czeck

Free trade
Schacht
Industry research
Funk

Research buff for 37 and 39 construction

 

[Federkiel]

Rhineland
4 year plan
Autarky
Hermann Göring
The next 6 civ Fokus
Reichsautobahn
Anschluss
All of the dockyard focus (there are more then just 5 docks, 6 additional ;-))
War economy
Sometime later then Memel and then czeck

Free trade
Schacht
Industry research
Funk

Research buff for 37 and 39 construction

That sounds pretty good.

However, i have been wondering a while on whether Free Trade still is worth it since MtG. It was before but since the general research speed has increased, the +9% bonus isn't that impressive anymore. Still you have to pay 300 PP to change the trade law and later switch back as the war begins. While i generally know the ingame effects of the different trade laws - has anyone done the maths or a reasonable pro/con assessment for the current state of the game? I especially think of innovative pals like @bitmode and @Secret Master .

 

[porta80]

Yes it is.
9% is massive, it saves you around 30 days per year/research slot
On 4-5 slots thats 120-150 days so basically 1 extra tech per year so in 3 years 3 techs.
+increased construction rate and factory output.
Germany is behind in tech compared to uk or usa, so not using it puts you even more in a disadvantage.
I recommend using at least export focus if you dont want to use another 150 pp to switch back.
And i dont see where tech speed was increased only decryption and encryption had been taken out, but it still is massive what you need to research and you still have to focus and prioritise.

 

[Federkiel]

Yes it is.
9% is massive, it saves you around 30 days per year/research slot
On 4-5 slots thats 120-150 days so basically 1 extra tech per year so in 3 years 3 techs.
+increased construction rate and factory output.
Germany is behind in tech compared to uk or usa, so not using it puts you even more in a disadvantage.
I recommend using at least export focus if you dont want to use another 150 pp to switch back.
And i dont see where tech speed was increased only decryption and encryption had been taken out, but it still is massive what you need to research and you still have to focus.

The general research speed pre 1.6 was 100%. As PDox announced, it was set to 125% of what it was before. Indeed some research have a lower duration than they had before. As some others - doctrines - have been increased in research cost, i'd say it was offset overall. The additional research options often lead to complains that there would not be enough research.


In the consideration of pros/cons for Free Trade one has to consider some other impacting factors, too i think: Due to the PP expenditure, taking Hess/Bormann more or less becomes mandatory in effect. Also, if design companies like Krupp can only be taken later, this might also lead to economic delays, as is a possible pick of Schacht at a later point than usual / or to take him at all. Although GER gets a good flow of it, there is just so much to do and PP is a finite resource itself. 300 PP really is a fortune worth two other beneficial and maybe even crucial picks...

Leaving out a tech or two - immediately there do a lot come to mind (resource production 1, 2 which you don't need if staying at limited export output, some support companies like Signal and Hospital and there is just more, depending on the respecitve playing style).

It's a trade off but i have yet to find a satisfying answer to this elemental question.

 

[porta80]

Krupp provides 15% research bonus, but limited to industrial research so in optimum case 3 research slots at the same time.
Its sums up to about 45-50 days/year/slot if only doing industrial research on these slots all the time. as stated before 9% bosting is an all available research slots if you have 5 you are even. And nobody says dont pick Krupp just pick him a little later. So its still in your favour.
Germany generates 150 pp in about ~100 says at start after you have hess and bormann. So taking krupp 100 days later you lost like ~18 days of industrial research worst case. But gained also 9- 18 days on the other slot/slots.
And 150 pp in mid/late 38 to switch back you lose a leader but you have all the research bonus companies already.
You can manage your economy that you build more guns at start so you only need 1 runber to import for planes and ramp ip production on that later. So you benefit from construction time and factory output also.
I didnt do exact calculations here just pi * thumb, but i bet i am close.

 

[Simon_9732495]

However, i have been wondering a while on whether Free Trade still is worth it since MtG.

The work of @DaleDVM I referenced in my Posting #13 also covers this topic: (And says free trade is worth it):

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/lets-talk-germany.1163659/post-25314418

 

[Simon_9732495]

Tried another one with early Anschluss:

01.06.1939:
Owned CIVs = 126
MILs = 112
Docks = 21
REFs = 12
Collaborations = 0
Benchmark = 2.475.600

I used the research buffs on construction 3 and 4 and had construction 4 on 11th December 1938.

That's some modifiers on construction: ( @porta80 I need total mob... )

It seems early Anschluss is not worth it for economy. You can do better without it.


@Ffire
I built almost only guns most of the time and had on 1.6.1939 120 full trained 20width armys and 215k guns in stock. (Not optimized, more possible.)

 

[porta80]

I already also thought about using the bonus for construction 4 not sure if its worth it as you delay construcrion 2 and 3 but 4 is so long ahead, when did it finish?

 

[Federkiel]

The work of @DaleDVM I referenced in my Posting #13 also covers this topic: (And says free trade is worth it):

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/lets-talk-germany.1163659/post-25314418

Thanks for the heads-up. @DaleDVM 's strategy reminds me of one i had tried in the past as well. must have been around 1.6 release or so. After all i remained insecure whether doing Free Trade first would be more rewarding. The temporary net 'loss' in PP seemed to be outweighed by a quicker improvement on research speed, construction and production bonus.

In general these strategies require pretty much planning ahead and more careful timing to match with research. The workload for the mind makes me do timestops while playing quite often. Very time-consuming, too...

 

[Simon_9732495]

I already also thought about using the bonus for construction 4 not sure if its worth it as you delay construcrion 2 and 3 but 4 is so long ahead, when did it finish?

11th December 1938.
But I had the problem that I had no buff ready for construction3. I researched the first 20% or something without buff.

It might be worth it for economy, but I think it's best to do construction3 and industry3 with the bonus. Because industry 3 has also very nice buffs for your fighter and tank production.

 

[porta80]

Yes for a normal build i wouldnt do that. As yoi said best used on construction 3 and industrie 3.

 

[Secret Master]

That sounds pretty good.

However, i have been wondering a while on whether Free Trade still is worth it since MtG. It was before but since the general research speed has increased, the +9% bonus isn't that impressive anymore. Still you have to pay 300 PP to change the trade law and later switch back as the war begins. While i generally know the ingame effects of the different trade laws - has anyone done the maths or a reasonable pro/con assessment for the current state of the game? I especially think of innovative pals like @bitmode and @Secret Master .

I haven't gotten around to running tests yet. I've been too busy at work.

Next week, I plan to run some basic production tests to compare a German CIC build versus no CIC build to see where the equipment numbers shake out. I'm having to rethink my testing procedure since garrisons lose equipment, the log only goes back one year, and it could muddy the waters. But I think I have a good testing plan.

 

[Federkiel]

I haven't gotten around to running tests yet. I've been too busy at work.

Next week, I plan to run some basic production tests to compare a German CIC build versus no CIC build to see where the equipment numbers shake out. I'm having to rethink my testing procedure since garrisons lose equipment, the log only goes back one year, and it could muddy the waters. But I think I have a good testing plan.

Great, i am really looking forward to your conclusions!

Made a halfway test myself today. However, my most recent approach does not work on it. I tend to cancel the Hipper Class which is being represented so outdated to me and rather start building the three of the Class after i changed modules accordingly. This however leads to some resource problems with several capital ships at once in the queue on Free Trade and i have to persuade myself into importing steel as GER yet...

PP wise the thingy seems to work well with both Silent Workhorses being set first...

 

[Premu]

So, after the discussion in the thread I've opened where I proposed to take Rhineland pretty late, I made a test run for that benchmark. My buildup was as follows:

Focuses:
1. Directly go to the extra research slot via the 12 extra civs.
2. Go for research agreement with the SU to be able to produce medium tanks far earlier than anyone else
3. Reichsautobahn -> Rhineland -> War economy
4. Now go for Anschluss and the Czech focuses to "liberate" all Germans into the Reich. I squeezed in the first focus for the refineries.
5. After taking all your rightful terrotory, take the focus for getting the +2 rubber for each refinery.
6. Now go for Molotov-Ribbentrop pact followed by Danzig or war.

Buildup-strategy:
Until 37, just build civs in the state with 80 an 70% infrastructure, including the four which will profit from the Autobahn.
In 38, pump out Mils (and perhaps squeeze in a few docks if you want to)
In 39, switch to refineries

PP-Spending:
1. The first advisor is Schacht. After him improve the working conditions to get the extra stability early on while the productivty malus doesn't hurt so much.
2. This is followed by Bormann.
3. Now you can take those research companies based on your preferences.
4. In 38 when you switch to MILs, replace Schacht with Funke.

Research:
I avoided researching ahead of time and did this only a few months to not suffer from the research penalty too much. I didn't min-max my research for optimizing this benchmark, but made it balanced.

Military equipment: I didn't build any light tanks at all, and initialy only few small arms. I relied on the Austrians and Czechs to build those for me. Instead I built a large amount of trucks, artillery and fighters. Once the extra mils came in I kept building the equipment I saw as essential for the war against Poland and France early on. So I had to import a substantial amount of rubber, tungsten and later also aluminum. My aim is to be self-sufficient with rubber once the war starts, though, as the supply is simply cut off.

Spying:
I built an agency in 1937 to set up collabaration goverment in Poland and France. I also improved their cryptology department to start some deciphering for those sweet bonuses.

I also propose that for sake of such a benchmark to include the amount of owned "stuff" - Obviously you can get ridicoulus amounts of factories with such meme runs, but I'm pretty certain most of us wouldn't see those as really strong "openings". So I'll count how much IC-days of equipment I own.

So these are my results for June 1939:

Civs: 93
Mils: 93
Docks: 13
Refs: 8
Collaborations: 1 in Poland (finished) and one ongoing in France (Although the civ-investement is already done).

Overall benchmark: 1873200

Owned equipment (land + air): 287807 IC-days
Produced ships: 4 Type II U-Boats, 18 Type VII U-Boats, 2 BBs, 2 CAs, 14 DDs

 

[porta80]

How did you calculate your Equipment? I did build my first Mil end of 38.
Concentrated or dispersed Industry?
I just did a test. Forgot to do colaborations, but even then...

Synth	0​
CIV	128​
MIC	95​
NIC	25​
Fuel Depot	2​
Summary of total	2236400​

	Production Cost	Stockpile	Stockpile*Production Cost
AA	4​	3049​	12196​
Armored Car	4​	435​	1740​
Art	3,5​	4392​	15372​
Inf	0,5​	149150​	74575​
Mot	2,5​	3159​	7897,5​
Sup	4​	6960​	27840​
LT	9​	2190​	19710​
MT	13​	1103​	14339​
TP	180​	4​	720​
Fighter	24​	3636​	87264​
CAS	22​	578​	12716​
Nav	26​	72​	1872​
Tacs	37​	776​	28712​
Summary of total		​	304953,5

I did build /am building 2 additional Battleships will finisch Mid 40 and refitting most of my old ships, I did finish those ships that where under construction at start of the game
4 Subs
14 DD
2 CA
2 BB

2 More mils will finish in the next week and then im all in on Synths (probably 5-6 will finish before the war starts)

 

[Premu]

How did you calculate your Equipment? I did build my first Mil end of 38.

I dissolved all my units, cancelled all recruitments and set the garnision in czechia to "none". After that I just checked what I had. I did differ between different models, though, as the older and outdated variants are cheaper to build:

Equipment	Cost	Numbers	Total
Art	3,5​	6500​	22750​
Infantry-Equipment I	0,5​	119100​	59550​
Motorized	2,5​	11800​	29500​
Support Equipment	4​	7000​	28000​
Light Tank I	8​	808​	6464​
Light Tank II	9​	1100​	9900​
Medium Tank	12​	990​	11880​
Transport Plane	180​	3​	540​
Fighter Early	22​	265​	5830​
Fighter 1936	24​	2850​	68400​
CAS	22​	538​	11836​
Nav	25​	266​	6650​
Tac Early	35​	418​	14630​
Tac 1936	37​	321​	11877​
Total			287807​

(I really wonder where my fourth TP went - doesn't Germany start with 4? )

Concentrated or dispersed Industry?

Dispersed industry.

I just did a test. Forgot to do colaborations, but even then...

Synth	0​
CIV	128​
MIC	95​
NIC	25​
Fuel Depot	2​
Summary of total	2236400​

	Production Cost	Stockpile	Stockpile*Production Cost
AA	4​	3049​	12196​
Armored Car	4​	435​	1740​
Art	3,5​	4392​	15372​
Inf	0,5​	149150​	74575​
Mot	2,5​	3159​	7897,5​
Sup	4​	6960​	27840​
LT	9​	2190​	19710​
MT	13​	1103​	14339​
TP	180​	4​	720​
Fighter	24​	3636​	87264​
CAS	22​	578​	12716​
Nav	26​	72​	1872​
Tacs	37​	776​	28712​
Summary of total		​	304953,5

I assume you did tech-rush the 41-tank model? Could you split up your numbers between the different types? This might have a measurable influence on the overall number. Still it's a surprisingly high number for me as in both our builds we have almost an identical number of MILs and you started building them almost one year later than me. Or did you also tech-rush the productivity techs increasing your output? I was pretty tame in that regard.

I did build /am building 2 additional Battleships will finisch Mid 40 and refitting most of my old ships, I did finish those ships that where under construction at start of the game
4 Subs
14 DD
2 CA
2 BB

2 More mils will finish in the next week and then im all in on Synths (probably 7-8 will finish before the war starts)

Measuring the naval output is pretty hard, but fortunately it's not that essiential for Germany.

 

[porta80]

If you like, didnt think it matters, as the old equipment is there from the start. the diffrence is less then 1% I could have buil 7-8 mils for the 10 dockyards I did build instead, so even more equipment. I have 35 more civs then you there payback time is not yet there, they will pay off in about half a year later.

	Production Cost	Stockpile	Stock*Production Cost
AA	4​	3049​	12196​
Armored Car	4​	435​	1740​
Art	3,5​	4392​	15372​
Inf	0,5​	149375​	74687,5​
Mot	2,5​	3159​	7897,5​
Sup	4​	6960​	27840​
LT 1	8​	908​	7264​
LT 2	9​	1288​	11592​
MT 1	12​	940​	11280​
MT 2	13​	163​	2119​
TP	180​	4​	720​
Interwar Fighter	22​	307​	6754​
Fighter	24​	3329​	79896​
CAS	22​	578​	12716​
Nav	26​	72​	1872​
Early Tac	35​	385​	13475​
Tacs	37​	391​	14467​
Summary of total			301888​

I went Concentrated yeah I did techrush the 39 Mashine Tools

 

[Simon_9732495]

(I really wonder where my fourth TP went - doesn't Germany start with 4? )

Could be in use for an operation.