1.8 Teasers

[Rezca]

>[Leave it alone]
>[Attempt to feed science ships to it]
>[If we bribe it, maybe it wont eat us?]

Feed it?

Heck, maybe you could build some sort of observation base nearby. It's big enough to see with a telescope from a nearby system, probably. Just a silly thought, really.

Feeding it science ships
That's one way to gain Society research, voidwyrm biology through repeated sacrifice of (hopefully automated!) science ships.

In all seriousness though, it'd be cool if you could passively observe it. Maybe have a second chain of events where you can cooexist with it in a more peaceful manner - perhaps sacrificing the ability to mine the special system, but you might get other benefits over time? Maybe the wyrm's intelligent, and you can develop a way to communicate with it, and over time trust is built and you can incubate the egg without the need for a fight. Of course, there's also the side effect that its population increases :>

I like the Infinity Sphere guardian for this reason, in that you can interact with it in more ways than just "shoot at it!" - but you do still have that option

 

[Ari54x]

I think habs are probably the least problematic aspect of the internal aspects of the game, because they have only one tier of structure the micromanagement isn't quite so ridiculously bad*. The problem with megastructures is unconnected to planet management, the problem is that they simply aren't worth the resources and time you spend on them, and that they come far too late in the game to make a difference.

Except the sentinel array. The sentinel array is cool.

* but still bad

They are pretty costly, but part of that's because they are literally expanding the number of resources available in the game rather than having you fight over resources, so you need to actually factor in the practical scarcity of inhabitable planets after many of them are locked inside other empires' borders and the opportunity costs to get at them when you're considering the costs of megastructures. It's difficult to accurately judge the true utility of uncapping yourself in a situation when you normally wouldn't be able to further expand, (or even just a situation where the enemy is evenly matched enough that it's more economical to go tall first than to be the one fighting a war against them) and it's actually a bit more complicated than comparing the utility to that of an extra colony, because there is no trade-off in war costs or defending extra territory, and in fact habitable megastructures can be used strategically to push back borders and claim systems that belonged to other empires without ever going to war with them.

The devs get that these intangibles, like having more powerful individual ships, should probably have some cost attached if they're not going to be unbalancingly good and actually displace the incentive to expand in the lategame. It's reasonable to debate whether the cost is too high, but I take it you agree it's reasonable given those extra advantages that a Hab should be more costly than colonizing a comparable planet, and a ringworld should be more costly than terraforming and colonizing four worlds to Gaia state? I actually find habs themselves pretty cheap and accessible, it's the other megastructures that are a bit out there, although for some of them, the cost is so high because so is the reward.

 

[Tim_Ward]

They are pretty costly, but part of that's because they are literally expanding the number of resources available in the game rather than having you fight over resources, so you need to actually factor in the practical scarcity of inhabitable planets after many of them are locked inside other empires' borders and the opportunity costs to get at them when you're considering the costs of megastructures. It's difficult to accurately judge the true utility of uncapping yourself in a situation when you normally wouldn't be able to further expand, (or even just a situation where the enemy is evenly matched enough that it's more economical to go tall first than to be the one fighting a war against them) and it's actually a bit more complicated than comparing the utility to that of an extra colony, because there is no trade-off in war costs or defending extra territory, and in fact habitable megastructures can be used strategically to push back borders and claim systems that belonged to other empires without ever going to war with them.

The devs get that these intangibles, like having more powerful individual ships, should probably have some cost attached if they're not going to be unbalancingly good and actually displace the incentive to expand in the lategame. It's reasonable to debate whether the cost is too high, but I take it you agree it's reasonable given those extra advantages that a Hab should be more costly than colonizing a comparable planet, and a ringworld should be more costly than terraforming and colonizing four worlds to Gaia state? I actually find habs themselves pretty cheap and accessible, it's the other megastructures that are a bit out there, although for some of them, the cost is so high because so is the reward.

Well, the problem is that the mega-structures scale poorly not just against spending the minerals on a fleet to go conquering, but against habitats (which are extremely useful + cool + only mildly annoying UI wise: probably one of the best things in Utopia).

Example: a dyson sphere costs 210,000 minerals and takes 55 years to complete. It outputs 400 energy per month.

A habitat fully devoted to the production of energy can produce approximately 100 energy a month, depending on happiness, traits, edicts etc, and costs 7000 minerals. They take 5 years, plus say another 5 to get it fully developed.

So, for the price of one dyson sphere you could get 30 habitats, producing 3000 energy, and you can build them simultaneously (IIRC) so you can do all this pretty much as fast as you can get the minerals. And they contribute to fleet cap. I'm pretty sure whatever nebulous advantages come from the dyson sphere not using pops and therefore not adding to tech or unity costs (HINT: those things don't matter at that stage of the game; you're well into repeatable techs and probably have all the perks and traditions you want), they don't make up for it being an entire order of magnitude less effective than than habitats. That's almost comically underpowered - try putting another zero on the end of the dyson sphere's output, then we'll talk.

Same basically goes for the ring world. Science nexus is just hilariously shit for a) what it does vs cost against habitats and b) how late in the game it appears (because, again, you're well into repeatable techs).

The sentinel array is cool because it gives you something you can't get any other way.

 

[Sapa Inca]

Dyson spheres need some buff in energy production but the other megastructures are fine imo.
The science nexus problem is a design problem, not a number problem, the nexus will be good just if the late game tech was a important factor in fleet power what should be imo.
Building ringworlds conceptualy need be inferior to colonization or conquest, their niche is be a form to pacifist empires expand and their difference to habitats is the better efficiency in mineral and food production.
What people need understand is that megastructures are balanced around tall or pacifist play and are what turn this playstyles in viable, megastructures are simply inneficient to wide and warmongerin civs and should be.

 

[misterderp]

Minor flavor bonus teaser: Blockers on your starting planet will now vary somewhat depending on your empire type. No more hive mind slums!

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/881852710680748033

In the @StellarisGame 1.8 'Čapek' update, Hive Minds can now keep other species as livestock instead of eating them all at once.

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/881850589101137921

 

[Milten]

In the @StellarisGame 1.8 'Čapek' update, Hive Minds can now keep other species as livestock instead of eating them all at once.

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/881850589101137921

Wait, what's going on here, what's up with these 4-5 food numbers? It now includes tile resources or what?

 

[jose2534]

what's up with these 4-5 food numbers? It now includes tile resources or what?

It looks like you can feed them with the production of the farm and make them win weight and protein?

 

[MateuszS]

In the @StellarisGame 1.8 'Čapek' update, Hive Minds can now keep other species as livestock instead of eating them all at once.

View attachment 281797

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/881850589101137921

I've thought about hive mind and slavery (basically hm could staple them and use as miners or livestock) recently, so this could work (maybe not restricted only to livestock, but as well as chattel slavery - but player would have to staple them).

 

[Milten]

I've thought about hive mind and slavery (basically hm could staple them and use as miners or livestock) recently, so this could work (maybe not restricted only to livestock, but as well as chattel slavery - but player would have to staple them).

I don't know why Wiz (and probably the team) is so opposed to this, all you need to do is
A)Make non-hivemind pops being unable to join/create factions
...
That's it. Xeno pops would generate unrest and they shouldn't affect Tradition cost (since it is different thing for a Hivemind), but otherwise hivemind gameplay will stay unchanged.

 

[melaw]

Well, the problem is that the mega-structures scale poorly not just against spending the minerals on a fleet to go conquering, but against habitats (which are extremely useful + cool + only mildly annoying UI wise: probably one of the best things in Utopia).

Not really. Habitats cost influence, people on it cost food, consumer goods, and make tech&unity slower. A couple is fine, but megastructures
will keep being worth it no matter how you put it. They come with no disadvantages aside from taking long and costing much.

 

[jose2534]

I've thought about hive mind and slavery

I actually think this is not possible in a Hive Mind, because of the Hive Mind characteristics. There is more efficiency in the drones than in sentient creatures. A drone can't suffer the exploitation, it doesn't even think about it, and once one dies another takes it place with no repercussions in the life of the hive mind drones. They are all interconnected even; they know when one is sick or dead in order to immediately replace it.

But sentient species slaves, on the other hand, are weaker in this aspect. They will feel the loss of another one of theirs, they will suffer psychological trauma, they will feel pain, they will try to scape more often, they will need love and or care in their development to adulthood or childhood, training to pick the tools of the mines; plus the hive mind needs to put effort in keep them at bay, trying to deliver them their basic needs to survive, while with the drones it knows exactly what they need to do and they don’t talk among themselves. Staple creatures are no good either, because they will still be cut off of the hive, and still need training and extra effort, if one of them dies its dead may go unnoticed for some time, and that is time gone to waste.

Plus, why staple them if you can connect them to the hive and have them work as and extension of one will?

Another thing: the livestock works, because they only need to be feed in ghettos and die on an oven when they have win the correct weight, their taste isn't even a necessary characteristic if they are nutritious for a hive mind.

 

[Milten]

But sentient species slaves, on the other hand, are weaker in this aspect. They will feel the loss of another one of theirs, they will suffer psychological trauma, they will feel pain, they will try to scape more often, they will need love and or care in their development to adulthood or childhood, training to pick the tools of the mines; plus the hive mind needs to put effort in keep them at bay, trying to deliver them their basic needs to survive, while with the drones it knows exactly what they need to do and they don’t talk among themselves. Staple creatures are no good either, because they will still be cut off of the hive, and still need training and extra effort, if one of them dies its dead may go unnoticed for some time, and that is time gone to waste.

That's all good, but they aren't gameplay-wise. See the food/mineral bonus compared to plain drone production.

 

[jose2534]

That's all good, but they aren't gameplay-wise. See the food/mineral bonus compared to plain drone production.

I agree with you there, gameplay-wise this is not translated well, but still, the flavor and lore behind of a hive-mind species makes the mine (chattel) slavery more a loss than a win.

 

[MateuszS]

I actually think this is not possible in a Hive Mind, because of the Hive Mind characteristics. There is more efficiency in the drones than in sentient creatures. A drone can't suffer the exploitation, it doesn't even think about it, and once one dies another takes it place with no repercussions in the life of the hive mind drones. They are all interconnected even; they know when one is sick or dead in order to immediately replace it.

But sentient species slaves, on the other hand, are weaker in this aspect. They will feel the loss of another one of theirs, they will suffer psychological trauma, they will feel pain, they will try to scape more often, they will need love and or care in their development to adulthood or childhood, training to pick the tools of the mines; plus the hive mind needs to put effort in keep them at bay, trying to deliver them their basic needs to survive, while with the drones it knows exactly what they need to do and they don’t talk among themselves. Staple creatures are no good either, because they will still be cut off of the hive, and still need training and extra effort, if one of them dies its dead may go unnoticed for some time, and that is time gone to waste.

Plus, why staple them if you can connect them to the hive and have them work as and extension of one will?

Another thing: the livestock works, because they only need to be feed in ghettos and die on an oven when they have win the correct weight, their taste isn't even a necessary characteristic if they are nutritious for a hive mind.

1. Nerve stapled slaves get huge bonus to food and mineral production
2. To create an alternative to assimilation/purge
I think that hive mind would use slaves* as (mindless?) tools to gather minerals and food or wouldn't use slavery at all. Again, why would they care about conditions of their "tools", as slaves can be replaced?

* BTW some kind of benelovent hive mind could use slave armies. For now, they have only clones (and bio ascension stuff). Not to mention usual assault armies.

 

[Milten]

I agree with you there, gameplay-wise this is not translated well, but still, the flavor and lore behind of a hive-mind species makes the mine (chattel) slavery more a loss than a win.

I can create lore justification for slave usage just as easy. No slaves for hiveminds is pretty much a matter of preference.

 

[Zoinker]

Wait, what's going on here, what's up with these 4-5 food numbers? It now includes tile resources or what?

It's something that I noticed way back in Banks. Livestock get food bonuses from being adjacent to capital buildings, but only if there's a farm on the tile (even though they get no extra food from the farm itself).

 

[Numahr]

How ants would use us if they had a choice to do so? I think that's the best way to approach it.

Then look: ants never use other insects to delegate them work. Of course they're not really conscious (not that I know) but if they were, they'd say: "Why?" (they don't particularly enjoy doing nothing, you see) "But then what would we do? gathering food for the hive is our purpose in life. We cannot trust others to do so. They would be inefficient anyway since they would not understand our pheromone-based language".

However, ants actually use some other insects alive in their food production strategies, like in farming aphids in a symbiotic relationship. That is something ants understand, something that makes sense for them IRL.

To conclude, being chosen as a "symbiotic species" for farming by the Hive should be considered a honor by the privileged ones

 

[Sapa Inca]

Non-hive mind pops dont integrating in hive mind civs are just to create gameplay differences, I am fine with this.
The possibility with bio ascensiose of use nerve stapled slaves just turn the "add hive mind trait in non-hive mind pops" redundant and obsolet and remove a bit of flavour of the hive minds, a bad idea imo.

 

[misterderp]

After some feedback on mid- and late game food growth, I've changed the food growth calc for 1.8 to be based on number of growing planets.

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/881889369480736768

 

[Milten]

It's something that I noticed way back in Banks. Livestock get food bonuses from being adjacent to capital buildings, but only if there's a farm on the tile (even though they get no extra food from the farm itself).

Hmph, interesting bug, I need to check it eventually. Strange that Wiz decided to post it like that.