1.8 Ming too OP?

[unmerged(490347)]

Let's admit it, no other country has start base tax over 200 in 1444, Ming has more than 400.:blink:

I know it probably still underestimated the historical Ming's economy scale given the size and population of China, but man in this game Ming is OP now:mellow:.

 

[Taterthomp2]

everything they have is cut in half. Literally. (and thats the BEST it can get.)

hardly OP.

 

[FreeSoc]

Let's admit it, no other country has start base tax over 200 in 1444, Ming has more than 400.:blink:

I know it probably still underestimated the historical Ming's economy scale given the size and population of China, but man in this game Ming is OP now:mellow:.

You appear to have missed the permanent 50% local autonomy on every single province and the maluses to both manpower and reinforcement rate that are particular to Ming. They start with a huge number of troops (45,000), but once those are gone it (in theory) should be easy for their neighbours to obliterate them.

 

[uishax]

Its barely stronger than the original Ming (around 250 base tax), and the rebel system destroys them.
In the players hand its a different issue, given the much easier westernisation for large countries, they can island hop to west africa by 1550.

 

[Demusch]

That might be the case, but my 25k Manchurian army is still quite hesitant to go head-to-head with the eastern blob... Malus or no malus, a nation twice your army size is not something you'd invade without proper planning (read, allies).

 

[FreeSoc]

That might be the case, but my 25k Manchurian army is still quite hesitant to go head-to-head with the eastern blob... Malus or no malus, a nation twice your army size is not something you'd invade without proper planning (read, allies).

The thing is, once you've beaten their main forces, then it looks like in 1.8 you really have beaten them, because they will reinforce quite slowly and the manpower is godawful. I don't know why a country with more than 60 million inhabitants has a maximum of 25,000 manpower in addition to its armies at game-start, but there you go.

 

[unmerged(490347)]

I'm playing as Ming now. I did notice the inward perfection debuff. Half of over 400+base tax is still the richest nation in this game. And if you play as Ming you can just hire mercenaries rather than reinforce your own army. Then you can just pretty much crush everyone with 10:1~5:1 army. Because the Manchu tribes all set each other as rivals and will never get united, nobody on the border can challenge Ming.

 

[kiwimaster]

Hardly. Strong in player's hands, but as others have said, once their manpower starts to dip (usually from attrition in a war with nomads), they seem pretty much done for.

 

[Lazuline]

Hardly. Strong in player's hands, but as others have said, once their manpower starts to dip (usually from attrition in a war with nomads), they seem pretty much done for.

In gameplay terms, this is true and I understand the rationale from a balance perspective. One can say that all these nerfs are somewhat justified.

It just feels odd though that the most populous country in the game has a maximum manpower lower than 1444 France despite having 7 times more provinces.

 

[Krajzen]

In gameplay terms, this is true and I understand the rationale from a balance perspective. One can say that all these nerfs are somewhat justified.

It just feels odd though that the most populous country in the game has a maximum manpower lower than 1444 France despite having 7 times more provinces.

In my opinion Ming should have OP manpower if it manages to unite but huge problems with internal stability/administration. Anyway, Ming's gameplay slowly improves since EU3.

 

[Casus_Belli]

Then, in the final 50 years of the game, we shall see the epic clash of France and Ming...

 

[Krajzen]

Then, in the final 50 years of the game, we shall see the epic clash of France and Ming...

I would have nothing against it.

Generally I would love to see a way to balance AI China while leaving it a possibility to become super monster - I mean, the stagnation of Ming in 16th century/Quing in 19th weren't determined; China had 25% of the entire world economy at this time just for various internal reasons it wasn't interested in expansion. It could happen.

 

[toroltao]

I would have nothing against it.

Generally I would love to see a way to balance AI China while leaving it a possibility to become super monster - I mean, the stagnation of Ming in 16th century/Quing in 19th weren't determined; China had 25% of the entire world economy at this time just for various internal reasons it wasn't interested in expansion. It could happen.

The Manchus spent a few generations just pacifying China proper. To say that China wasn't in expansion is kind of bypassing that point where they got invaded during a bubonic plague epidemic while suffering from internal revolts and general anarchy.

 

[Krajzen]

The Manchus spent a few generations just pacifying China proper. To say that China wasn't in expansion is kind of bypassing that point where they got invaded during a bubonic plague epidemic while suffering from internal revolts and general anarchy.

it is included in 'various internal reasons it wasn't interested in expansion'

 

[unmerged(490347)]

I would have nothing against it.

Generally I would love to see a way to balance AI China while leaving it a possibility to become super monster - I mean, the stagnation of Ming in 16th century/Quing in 19th weren't determined; China had 25% of the entire world economy at this time just for various internal reasons it wasn't interested in expansion. It could happen.

AI China is already balanced since they always fucked it up. Player China is like the most OP nation u can pick at 1444.

 

[Incompetent]

If you can get your **** together versus rebels, China should be much easier to Westernise now that there's a minimum progress rate of +5 per month. Westernised China could be VERY scary.

 

[Wilhelm_Sun]

And now eunuchs give no buff on techs... plus 50% autonomy and inward perfection mega-debuff, hardly can i see how Ming is op with 25k manpower. 25k manpower be like the student population of my current university in Beijing.
Even in 1444 BC the tribes on the land of what now China is can have a merry party with 25k warriors pole dancing.
A more accurate way of reflecting the decadence of Ming Empire would be a debuff increasing on a time basis and indeed, internal struggle, considering that the autonomy level at the beginning of the game was in no way higher than its Nomad neighbors riding horses and living in tents.

Therefore, my personal thought is that Ming should be weakened in another way, but now in AoW it's not op.

 

[mythmonster2]

On my first game, I saw Ming declare war on one of the Manchurian tribes and lose. So, in the AI's hand, at least, I'd say definitely not OP at all.

 

[Osman Pasha]

Yeah, but I am surprised that they only have 400 base tax, I thought they will have at least 1000 base tax due to tripling the provinces.

 

[Raineh Daze]

I'm just saddened by the 'no tech for you!' change from pre-1.8. So now the most populous country on Earth, which has made vast contributions to science, is stuck to the same godawful tech rate as its neighbours, regardless of its internal structure and composition. So the only way to not be a scientific waste is... to follow the ideas of a continent that has a smaller populace than your entire country. Or more accurately, the ideas of half this continent. With the Eunuchs no longer offsetting tech debuffs...

Ironic when compared with the patch name, though.