[1.8] Bohemia/Brandenburg Next-Game-Plotting

[Landwalker]

Currently laboring (and I mean laboring) through my first 1.8 game, trying to reform the Holy Roman Empire as Austria. It has been the most maddening thing I've ever experienced in a game, and while Austria still holds the overall "score lead", but I spend most of my time refraining from completely snapping and putting my fist through the monitor...

So instead, I'm thinking about completely snapping and putting my fist through the Holy Roman Empire.

The leading candidates for this quest to completely disregard the empire and cut a path of vengeance across central Europe are Bohemia and Brandenburg, and that's where you fine folks come in.

1. With 1.8 kicking around now, how solid a choice is Bohemia? What sort of strategies might be effective with them? I really like Bohemia's national ideas (+3 tolerance of heretics? Let me slap some Humanism on that and we're ready for a party), so my preference is not to do a culture-shift-form-Prussia approach with them. What I might be interested in, though, is pulling a culture-shift-form-Germany instead, with the additional side goal of dismantling the HRE. How well-suited is Bohemia for something like this? Any other general ideas / strategies for the fine Czechan folks?
   
   
2. Obviously a Brandenburg game has all the national ideas one could want for grinding the rest of Europe under your iron-shod boot. The questions then become: Since you already share the same National Ideas, is there any compelling need to bother forming Prussia? (Important side note: If Brandenburg and Prussia have different unit models, and Prussia's are swankier, I absolutely consider that a compelling need. ) Considering that Brandenburg starts the game rather pint-sized, what are some good opening moves? My inclination would be an alliance with Poland and/or Bohemia (and/or Austria), take Neumark from the Teutonic Order, then try to pull something like "Annex Hinterpommern and vassalize Pomerania, get a claim on Danzig (and maybe Warmia or Ostpreussen), sell Hinterpommern to Pomerania, continue with the Teutonic Order beatdown. However, that assumes a Prussia formation (followed by turning around and putting Germany to waste), and I'm extremely open to other and better ideas as well.

So, thoughts from the peanut gallery / hive mind? What are y'all's experiences (especially 1.8 experiences) with either of these two beasts, and what might you recommend for them?

 

[Lucas Fenix]

I've got 2 Brandenburg games currently going.

My first, I got a royal marriage with Bohemia and claimed their throne after their first new king was of my dynasty. This was pretty solid, especially after Poland likes to turn on you after you take some of the Teutonic Order provinces they want. I'm against allying Poland because of this. My progress was slowed down by Poland and Lithuania turning on me and I'm losing interest in this attempt.

My second game I teamed up with Austria, Denmark and Muscovy instead. I took Teutonic order and all of the coast, from Kurland down to Denmark. This gave me a pretty sizeable income from trade. When I was hostile to Poland I tanked their prestige and carpet sieged to ensure a break up of the union with Lithuania. When Denmark and Austria become hostile I switch my allies to Sweden and Lithuania. I was lucky enough to get a personal union with Muscovy.

As soon as the first protestant event fires I convert and stay peaceful, I let my manpower recover and let my aggressive expansion go down. The HRE really hate me.

I'd personally go Brandenburg -> Prussia -> Germany. Poland need to be crushed early. I've yet to see any other German nations blob enough to be considered a problem.

 

[Freudia]

Bohemia's fun. I don't know if this still works, but back in 1.5 and 1.6 you could start the game and instantly marry Austria (and only Austria), and this had a high chance of netting you a Habsburg ruler. Then down the line you could claim Austria's throne and force a PU over them. Alternatively you could marry a nation like Denmark or Bavaria (whichever dynasty that is; von Wittlesbach? I think) and do the same thing to Denmark.

Alternatively, if you're gutsy, you could do what that guy who recently posted a Bohemia WC did: Bohemia into Russia.

 

[Sandmann]

A way to save AE and MP is to make TO release Danzig, let Poland and others eat TO. When TO is gone you release them from Neumark and return core feed them expensive provinces like Danzig. Meanwhile expand west and into Bohemia and Denmark.

 

[Landwalker]

Bohemia's fun. I don't know if this still works, but back in 1.5 and 1.6 you could start the game and instantly marry Austria (and only Austria), and this had a high chance of netting you a Habsburg ruler. Then down the line you could claim Austria's throne and force a PU over them. Alternatively you could marry a nation like Denmark or Bavaria (whichever dynasty that is; von Wittlesbach? I think) and do the same thing to Denmark.

Hmm, I hadn't considered that... I knew that Bohemia started in a... dynastically flexible position. Didn't consider the potential applications towards what amounts to "reverse throne-claiming". I could also see getting a pair of marriages with Saxony and Thuringia (both of the von Wettin dynasty), although they're probably more suited to traditional conquests.

Of course, as Lucas Fenix points out, that also works in the other direction for claiming the Bohemian throne. I could see something like putting a Hohenzollern on the Bohemian throne and then using an Austro-Brandenburg Alliance to seize it, while pushing into Prussia proper in the other direction. I like the Muscovy Alliance plan, as well.

 

[QuantumFailure]

As Brandenburg I have played many games (maybe too many:rofl and these are my opening moves. Ally Poland and Bohemia with your first two diplomats, then ally Austria if you can. Royal marriages with all of the three in any case. Take relations with your allies but more importantly Poland up to 200 and have a military access from them. Attack the Teutonic Order very early, take a province that limits with Poland, I usually do Danzig. Use the Pomeranian succession to vassalize Pomerania, don't take any provinces from them. Digest Pomerania, meanwhile you sway some OPM German states to your cause. Attack Poland on the grounds of the still valid RM; due to you taking Danzig they will hate you, having broken the alliance immediately after the war ended. Expand a little bit, I usually vassalize an then diplo-annex the Teutonic Order. Next step is forcin a PU on Poland with the help of Austria and Bohemia (yes, this sounds extremely risky but it has yielded very often good results for me). Wait a few years, use the same tactic to attack Bohemia (Austria will have rivaled them by that time). Wait and use that time to diplo-vassalize some of the German states needed to form Germany. Absorb Bohemia. Finally, ally France, attack Austria with a claim on the throne casus beli and then you are ready.

 

[Sandmann]

As Brandenburg I have played many games (maybe too many:rofl and these are my opening moves. Ally Poland and Bohemia with your first two diplomats, then ally Austria if you can. Royal marriages with all of the three in any case. Take relations with your allies but more importantly Poland up to 200. Attack the Teutonic Order very early, take a province that limits with Poland, I usually do Danzig. Use the Pomeranian succession to vassalize Pomerania, don't take any provinces from them. Digest Pomerania, meanwhile you sway some OPM German states to your cause. Attack Poland on the grounds of the still valid RM; due to you taking Danzig they will hate you, having broken the alliance. Force a PU on them with the help of Austria and Bohemia (yes, this sounds extremely risky but it has yielded very often good results for me). Wait a few years, use the same tactic to attack Bohemia (Austria will have rivaled them by that time). Wait and use that time to diplo-vassalize some of the German states needed to form Germany. Absorb Bohemia. Finally, ally France, attack Austria with a claim throne casus beli and then you are ready.

How would you force a PU on Poland without dynasty?

 

[DicRoNero]

Confirming that royal marriage to Austria grants you a Habsburg and thus a very likely Claim Throne CB on Hungary and then some chances to forge it on Austria as well. I'd say it's a 100% Habsburg unless you somehow manage to gain more prestige then Austria during your Interregnum. Just don't enter any other royal marriages and stay loyal to Rome when Podebrad (spelling?) king pops up.

Bohemia is super fun also because everyone and their dog seem to like you and you can thus expand wherever you want - at least before you enter your expansion spree and annex stuff left and right.

Really the best [starting] country I've played :]

edit: don't forget that you're positioned very well to kill both Poland and Lithuania early on, before they pick this pesky Local Nobility idea. Use that!

 

[Landwalker]

Follow-up -- I tried starting out with Brandenburg > Marry Bohemia, but unfortunately it seems like they're destined to get a Jagiellon on the throne from their Silesian vassal.

We'll see how it goes, at least.

What are some folks' preferences for first two idea groups for each of Brandenburg / Bohemia? For Brandenburg I'm thinking Aristocratic, then possibly Diplomatic (or maybe even the other way around). Bohemia seems like it's screaming for Diplomatic and/or Humanist, but I'd be reluctant to take the two non-Military idea groups as the first two. Feel like they need to have a military group like Aristocratic or Offensive sprinkled in, and maybe delay Humanist for #3.

 

[Sandmann]

Im going Administrative -> Aristocratic. Administrative saves you tons of adm points from coring and 10% on tech. Alot cheaper mercs + 1 extra available advisor is godly.

 

[Xara]

As Bohemia, going Aristocratic + build an Embassy + finish your ambitions basically means nobody will ever try to conquest you.

 

[Landwalker]

Im going Administrative -> Aristocratic. Administrative saves you tons of adm points from coring and 10% on tech. Alot cheaper mercs + 1 extra available advisor is godly.

Interesting... hadn't considered Administrative. Do you find that taking an ADM idea first causes any appreciable slow-down in your ability to "tech up" to ADM 7 to get that second idea group?

 

[Kh3lben]

I imagine the golden rule of getting a Habsburg on your throne applies to both of them.Get a Habsburg ruler,do whatever you like in HRE and just wait patiently. Sooner or later Austria gets their dynasty on the commonwealth throne and guess what,it's your dynasty too. Have fun PUing 100 provinces

 

[Xara]

Interesting... hadn't considered Administrative. Do you find that taking an ADM idea first causes any appreciable slow-down in your ability to "tech up" to ADM 7 to get that second idea group?

You don't need to complete the entire group, and you can set your national focus, so no.

 

[Deuterium Dawn]

is there any compelling need to bother forming Prussia?

That flag man. Best in the game.

(Important side note: If Brandenburg and Prussia have different unit models, and Prussia's are swankier, I absolutely consider that a compelling need. ) Considering that Brandenburg starts the game rather pint-sized, what are some good opening moves? My inclination would be an alliance with Poland and/or Bohemia (and/or Austria), take Neumark from the Teutonic Order, then try to pull something like "Annex Hinterpommern and vassalize Pomerania, get a claim on Danzig (and maybe Warmia or Ostpreussen), sell Hinterpommern to Pomerania, continue with the Teutonic Order beatdown. However, that assumes a Prussia formation (followed by turning around and putting Germany to waste), and I'm extremely open to other and better ideas as well.[/list]

That's pretty much what I did, kept Hinterpommern, but Pomerania fabbed claims on most of TO's provinces for me anyway after I sold them Danzig, so I fed them most TO's land then finished off the last two provinces after I annexed Pomerania(Poland got Chelmno after breaking our alliance, previously I'd dragged them into all my wars and kept them from sieging anything they had claims on). I then proceeded to annex a fair chunk of northern Germany and between Prussian traditions and influence ideas I've kept the coalition mostly to german minors. I also replaced Poland with Muscovy and will probably take on Poland-Lit fairly soon. I am planning on Prussia->Germany, destroy the HRE.

Interesting... hadn't considered Administrative. Do you find that taking an ADM idea first causes any appreciable slow-down in your ability to "tech up" to ADM 7 to get that second idea group?

I took influence first, and adm second, but that second adm idea will save you countless points, more than enough to make up for it.

 

[Freudia]

Follow-up -- I tried starting out with Brandenburg > Marry Bohemia, but unfortunately it seems like they're destined to get a Jagiellon on the throne from their Silesian vassal.

Silesia has a Piast. They get a Jagiellon from Poland.

What are some folks' preferences for first two idea groups for each of Brandenburg / Bohemia? For Brandenburg I'm thinking Aristocratic, then possibly Diplomatic (or maybe even the other way around). Bohemia seems like it's screaming for Diplomatic and/or Humanist, but I'd be reluctant to take the two non-Military idea groups as the first two. Feel like they need to have a military group like Aristocratic or Offensive sprinkled in, and maybe delay Humanist for #3.

I'm going to speak from the perspective of a Bohemia player (so this doesn't apply to Brandenburg): It really depends on the stats of the ruler you get. With national focus and a good ruler you can take whatever the hell you want first and still make tech timings. If you roll a strong admin ruler, I'd probably open Administrative > Offensive/Aristocratic > Humanist. If you roll strong diplomacy, then I'd open Influence > Offensive/Aristocratic > Humanist. If you roll strong military, then Aristocratic > Offensive > Humanist. Why these choices?

Administrative lets you core cheaper and gives you lots of merc-focused bonuses, which is really helpful early-game, as you can conserve manpower while your total pool is still small, enabling you more lenient control on preventing things like a Peasants' War. This also lets you fight more gutsy wars as well if you know what you're doing.

Influence lets you vassal parade better. While the HRE is annoying to vassal-feed in outside of Styria, diplo-annexation is still a solid way to expand inside the HRE, considering the magic double AE generation. Influence also doubles as an AE reduction tree, and honestly what else would Bohemia do with its diplo points?

Aristocratic and Offensive just confer the strongest military bonuses in regards to the earlygame: General stats. Having a higher floor on your general's stats mean you tend to get better generals regardless, and it means rolling generals at low tradition is still going to be a minimum 2/2/x/x general (because Bohemia has +1 leader fire in its NIs). Aristocratic also gives you more manpower and an extra diplomat, while Offensive gives you things like siege ability (so wars end faster).

 

[Gaamel]

Since you already share the same National Ideas, is there any compelling need to bother forming Prussia? (

The formation of Prussia gives you a shitload of free cores in the area. You only need Ostpreussen and Hinterpommern (or Danzig), so it can be worthwhile to wait for the reform to take Danzig for free (especially if Poland had cored it with the disgusting local nobility modifier).

 

[Freudia]

The formation of Prussia gives you a shitload of free cores in the area. You only need Ostpreussen and Hinterpommern (or Danzig), so it can be worthwhile to wait for the reform to take Danzig for free (especially if Poland had cored it with the disgusting local nobility modifier).

Of note, I think it's the only decision in the game to grant cores upon formation. All the other "Form x Nation" decisions give you claims, to my knowledge.

 

[1alexey]

Brandenburg is worse than TO start, so why not start as them, their new ideas are better, not as strong militarily, but more convenient, then reform to Prussia if you so desire. Also can get to Russian minors way faster to kick Muscowy in the butt. You can join HRE from the start as well. Diplomatic-Offencive-innovative-defencive is best early setup for Branden/TO that will become Prussia, add admin and influence on top of the cake when you fill like it.

Bohemia is kind of bad, because it is not of German culture, and it`s lack of sea access doesn`t help.

 

[illathid]

I imagine the golden rule of getting a Habsburg on your throne applies to both of them.Get a Habsburg ruler,do whatever you like in HRE and just wait patiently. Sooner or later Austria gets their dynasty on the commonwealth throne and guess what,it's your dynasty too. Have fun PUing 100 provinces

If you have Res Publica you can't claim throne on an Elective Monarchy (unless that's changed in 1.8). If you want to easily PU Poland you need to ally them and get them in a war against Lithuania so a Jagiellon doesn't come to the throne. As soon as your dynasty gets the throne you claim it on the same day so you aren't blocked by them getting elective monarchy.

EDIT:

Brandenburg is worse than TO start, so why not start as them, their new ideas are better, not as strong militarily, but more convenient, then reform to Prussia if you so desire. Also can get to Russian minors way faster to kick Muscowy in the butt. You can join HRE from the start as well. Diplomatic-Offencive-innovative-defencive is best early setup for Branden/TO that will become Prussia, add admin and influence on top of the cake when you fill like it.

I'd agree the TO is the better start, but it always feels wrong to me to be Prussia without the Hohenzollern dynasty.