Which ideas are the best with the advent of 1.8? Are the classic idea-groups that have been picked previously supreme, is religion, offensive, humanism and influence still the best, or have they been overthrown by newly buffed idea-groups?
1.8 and ideas - Religion and Humanism still on top?
- Thread starter marat271
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with the new rebel and autonomy system I've really started to enjoy Humanism. it's become a must pick for me. usually first or second idea group I choose. it almost allows you to ignore rebels 
never picked religious during all my campaigns. never felt I needed it.
never picked religious during all my campaigns. never felt I needed it.
Diplomacy with its cheaper province cost means cutting big countries in half is more effective, and vassalising costs are cheaper meaning bigger targets are on the table. Along with the reduced tech cost you can easily still take vassals and stay ahead on tech for the bonus.
Admin and Influence are still the top 2. Offensive and Diplomatic are 3 and 4 in some order. After that, Religious and Humanism are probably in the next tier along with Aristocratic, Defensive, Expansion, etc...
(And Exploration can't really be tiered. If you want to colonize a lot, then it becomes #1. If you don't, then its bottom-of-the-barrel.)
(And Exploration can't really be tiered. If you want to colonize a lot, then it becomes #1. If you don't, then its bottom-of-the-barrel.)
with the new rebel and autonomy system I've really started to enjoy Humanism. it's become a must pick for me. usually first or second idea group I choose. it almost allows you to ignore rebels
never picked religious during all my campaigns. never felt I needed it.
Well, the bonus to tolerance of true faith has the same effect.
Defensive is still very very good.
Naval is worthless and I would dare to say that Administrative is next to worthless.
Naval is worthless and I would dare to say that Administrative is next to worthless.
MIL ideas: mostly unchanged.
DIP ideas: Vassal feeding is now much more powerful, making Influence almost mandatory for expansion. Diplomatic is also a bit stronger with flexible negotiations. Improved trade income and more trade nodes means more merchants from Trade can be insanely powerful depending on what region of the world you are in, or mostly useless. The ability to drop idea groups has a very strong synergy with Exploration ideas if you desire early exploration but don't actually intend to colonize much (i.e., take exploration, fill only first two ideas, get to Europe to westernize as a non-Europea or get to asia as European, then drop Exploration and take Expansion).
ADM ideas: Expansion's CB is much more powerful since it now works in Africa and there is much more base tax to take in Asia/India/Africa. Administrative is arguably a lot less useful now that vassals are so flexible and conquest requires much less coring (some may still like it, I'd characterize them as the old guard who haven't adapted to vassal feeding). The new rebel system arguably makes Humanist's nationalism bonus a lot less appealing in terms of immediate reduction of revolts in conquered territory so long as you are willing to raise autonomy and accept slightly lower taxes and manpower for a time.
DIP ideas: Vassal feeding is now much more powerful, making Influence almost mandatory for expansion. Diplomatic is also a bit stronger with flexible negotiations. Improved trade income and more trade nodes means more merchants from Trade can be insanely powerful depending on what region of the world you are in, or mostly useless. The ability to drop idea groups has a very strong synergy with Exploration ideas if you desire early exploration but don't actually intend to colonize much (i.e., take exploration, fill only first two ideas, get to Europe to westernize as a non-Europea or get to asia as European, then drop Exploration and take Expansion).
ADM ideas: Expansion's CB is much more powerful since it now works in Africa and there is much more base tax to take in Asia/India/Africa. Administrative is arguably a lot less useful now that vassals are so flexible and conquest requires much less coring (some may still like it, I'd characterize them as the old guard who haven't adapted to vassal feeding). The new rebel system arguably makes Humanist's nationalism bonus a lot less appealing in terms of immediate reduction of revolts in conquered territory so long as you are willing to raise autonomy and accept slightly lower taxes and manpower for a time.
It's interesting. There are those that love Admin and people like me who have never picked Admin in my life. It always seems like there is a better Idea to pick. Admin seems like one of those ideas that if you don't pick early isn't all that great and in most of my games there are other Idea groups that I take early.
In most games i pick
1 and 2) Admin + Humanism (order changes sometimes)
3) diplo/influence/religious (depends on the nation)
4) defensive
1 and 2) Admin + Humanism (order changes sometimes)
3) diplo/influence/religious (depends on the nation)
4) defensive
It seems decently balanced now, with espionage the only group I wouldn't pick as any nation.
I take admin in lots of games. The variable is whether I complete the whole group or just the first two ideas to snag core cost reduction. If you've got a national idea that also reduces it, the result is crazy cheap cores that finish very quickly. Makes expanding much, much easier. I'd still rate religious the overall best admin idea. Humanism is fantastic but I often skip it. It's best if you get it early to maximize its finisher (I really want to do a protestant colonial nation with humanism to get 280 point ideas). I would religious as better overall because deus vult is the best all-purpose non-horde CB you'll find.
Best military remains quantity. 50% manpower and force limits, otherwise known as "would you like to be a horde?" and the 20% manpower recovery gets really killer. Nothing quite like carpet sieging Russia in December and watching your manpower go up. It's an idea that scales too. Any buildings to boost manpower or force limit get multiplied. It lets small nations compete and it makes big nations unstoppable.
Diplo is still a mixed bag. Influence and Diplomatic are both very strong. Influence tends to be overall better in most of my games because I do a lot of vassal feeding + annexing and influence makes them more useful while I'm feeding them and gets them inside me faster. Trade is crazy good in the right game, of course. Espionage is a joke (though it does unlock some great policies). Ditto maritime.
Best military remains quantity. 50% manpower and force limits, otherwise known as "would you like to be a horde?" and the 20% manpower recovery gets really killer. Nothing quite like carpet sieging Russia in December and watching your manpower go up. It's an idea that scales too. Any buildings to boost manpower or force limit get multiplied. It lets small nations compete and it makes big nations unstoppable.
Diplo is still a mixed bag. Influence and Diplomatic are both very strong. Influence tends to be overall better in most of my games because I do a lot of vassal feeding + annexing and influence makes them more useful while I'm feeding them and gets them inside me faster. Trade is crazy good in the right game, of course. Espionage is a joke (though it does unlock some great policies). Ditto maritime.
If you're not going to colonize you'd want administrative. It's a good second or first pick, because it is cost effective. Even if you plan on diplo annex it helps there with influence. The merc bonus isn't the big seller here to me, but it is nice to have when you start needing to merge your infantry. The +advisor events, and idea are awesome throughout the game, that's probably my favorite little thing about it.
The best generic ideas are...
Diplomatic
Innovative
Defensive
The order taken depending on circumstance, leader strengths etc. Why? Tech cost reduction, army tradition, increased diplomatic relations, reduced aggression cost etc.
Religious is useful if you are conquering the Arabs or Ottomans - but not that much use otherwise.
Expansionism/colonialism vital for Portugal, Spain, Russia etc
Quantity is really useful for medium sized nations
The least useful idea IMO is espionage - which could do with some serious work to increase it's value.
Administrative, economic, naval and aristocratic aren't that great either.
Diplomatic
Innovative
Defensive
The order taken depending on circumstance, leader strengths etc. Why? Tech cost reduction, army tradition, increased diplomatic relations, reduced aggression cost etc.
Religious is useful if you are conquering the Arabs or Ottomans - but not that much use otherwise.
Expansionism/colonialism vital for Portugal, Spain, Russia etc
Quantity is really useful for medium sized nations
The least useful idea IMO is espionage - which could do with some serious work to increase it's value.
Administrative, economic, naval and aristocratic aren't that great either.
Why would pick Religion AND Humanism? They seem to be mutually exclusive and it doesn't make sense to have both.
I haven't tried Espionage since 1.6 and it was a big joke, is this really worth it now or are you being sarcastic?
I haven't tried Espionage since 1.6 and it was a big joke, is this really worth it now or are you being sarcastic?
They're in no way mutually exclusive, but I can't imagine a scenario where I'd want or need both.