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unmerged(177849)

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Then they got rid of AE size scaling because they specially stated countries that get a certain size just want to paint the map and they want to support that play style. Then then they completely change course again.

See, I don't really think they changed course on that. It's still very easy to paint the map as a large nation. Coalition mechanics can still be annoying, but that hasn't changed. But for large nations without coring reduction mechanisms (or RTP), the limit is coring time, not coalitions - and that, too, hasn't changed.

That doesn't mean it is a perfect game by any means, even for large nations. But anyone who thinks that coalitions significantly limit large nations ability to paint the map is doing it wrong. (Coalition mechanics are still annoying for large nations, but more about limiting methods of painting the map, and forcing you to constantly shift theatres of war).

Now, it's true that 1.4 it was easier to blob generally. But I think the only reasonable inference is that the nerf to AE was much greater than intended.
 

jii

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I've seen a lot of great threads like these, and they're full of (imo) insightful comments and silence from the developers. I think the reasoning behind avoiding internal mechanics is that EU4 is meant as a "casual" game, and for people fresh from CIV and other games I believe it's regarded as quite complex/challenging (I've heard it described as "the dark souls of the strategy genre".) Obviously for people experienced in strategy and/or history, it falls short, but that's where the sales are.
 

mcmanusaur

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Well, the stated design goal is apparently freedom:
From the design perspective, the open-ended grand strategy games Paradox Development Studio makes are specifically created to give the players freedom to explore the simulation for as long as they want. "I see the amount of hours players sink into our games as hard evidence that gamers want freedom," said Johan Andersson, studio manager. "We want you as a gamer to have freedom to set your own goals, decide what tools to use and make choices."
I guess that makes the question whether the current feature set and balance situation serve that goal... obviously freedom doesn't explain many of the design decisions, so clearly- and not unexpectedly- there are other goals influencing the design...
 

vicotnik

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Well, the stated design goal is apparently freedom:

I guess that makes the question whether the current feature set and balance situation serve that goal... obviously freedom doesn't explain many of the design decisions, so clearly- and not unexpectedly- there are other goals influencing the design...
You don't think the game supports freedom? You can play pretty much any nation in a 350 year time period. If there are things that you don't agree with you can mod them yourself if you know how or compensate with console commands that have a lot of flexibility. The iron man mode was obviously added to support those who wants more rules and challenge, but other than that the game has a lot of freedom and mechanics to support it.
 

Incompetent

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Hmmm so if someone made a mod that basically turned EUIV into CK2 hardcore people would love it?

Ideally for the hardcore crowd, EU4 would have the dynastic complexity of CK2, the economic, demographic and popular-political complexity of Victoria 2 (but somehow including dynamic trade routes as well), and the military complexity of one of the HOI games. After all, Paradox already has all the ingredients...
 

Nvalth

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Ideally for the hardcore crowd, EU4 would have the dynastic complexity of CK2, the economic, demographic and popular-political complexity of Victoria 2 (but somehow including dynamic trade routes as well), and the military complexity of one of the HOI games. After all, Paradox already has all the ingredients...

Will it be fun to play ? Is the military complexity of HOI games required, or even valid, in the time period of EU IV ? What for the dynastic complexity of CK 2 and the economic, demographic and popular-political complexity of Victoria 2 ? Do they fit into the game ? Would they bring something useful or just add mechanics to add mechanics ? What would be the commercial benefit of merging 4 games into one ? What would change between the games would only be the timeline ?
 

seeds24

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one thing that I really don't like are the events. They feel too much like random punishment or reward with very little control from the player. In Vic 2 events are sometimes repetitive but they make sense and allow you to alter your nation step by step, inside the polical/ideological system. In Ck2 they are immersive because they belong to the RPG part of the game. In EU4 they are just boring. Eu4 is half of a paradox game because of the lack of this "internal thing". It has war, diplomacy, expansion ? well, Vic 2 and Ck2 can offer that too, and much more.
 

mcmanusaur

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You don't think the game supports freedom?
That's not what I said. I simply stated the obvious that there are a lot of design decisions in the game that seem to have been made with things other than freedom in mind (which should really go without saying). After all, not every aspect of the game is a question of more or less freedom.
 

PeterCorless

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The only country where there is a major internal political issue is China. But the way they have the three factions system set up makes it odious for me to play. I tried it once, saw that I had no direct control over how I wanted to take the country, and quit that game. It's sort of the same thing for the Orthodoxy slider; I've still yet to find any game where it should be less than 100% religious (you need the manpower and the missionary buff to convert all the provinces you take; and the way the economy system works, you can lose the money without minding it).

If you are going to have any sort of internal politics, there should be better ways for the player themselves to manage it; it should not be left up to the whims of random events.

My own personal desire is to see more of a way to manage zealousness (single-state religion, single culture) vs. pluralism (multi-religious, multi-cultural tolerance). There are advantages to converting the heathen, but there's also advantages to Marcus Aurelius' advice to let the people keep their superstitions.

I also think that the whole AE/OE/Coalitions system needs to be thought about better. I had no problem with it conceptually, but the problem is that the game seems to keep way, way too much AE for too long. You can't burn it off in a century.

OE also seems odd, in that the game now works to make you engage in moderately-scaled wars for 4-7 provinces every few years. Get close to (but not more than) 100% OE. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Coalitions, as has been mentioned in other threads, really need to make sense. Random distant nations joining coalitions just makes for late-game sitzkrieg. I had a wonderful time playing Great Britain until about 1739, then saw the state of AE and the coalition built up, and.... then just deleted the whole saved game folder.

Speaking of which...

Feature requests:

1. "Make New Folder" and "Delete Folder" options under Save Game. Oh boy do I want to be able to save my games in different folders. I can do that manually now going into my machines' file system and creating folders, but why not just allow a player to instantly create a folder, or blow away a whole folder's worth of ancient saved games? Of course, there should be a confirmation button... but heck... This is not new computer science.

2. More modifiers for AE and OE. If you want to play with less AE and OE, to allow for more (or less) sweeping wars, let people monkey with these using sliders at game start. Either that, or allow some sort of national modifiers or event system to fire off, and create national or regional modifiers. ("Land grab in Asia!" 10% discount on OE for the next decade in Asian provinces; or "European regionalism stiffens..." 10% higher OE for the next decade in European provinces.)

3. More ways to *stop* "sabotage reputation." So far, the most I can do is create a the best anti-spy building in my capital. And... that's it? Come on! There has to be a way to make a secret police force, or a better embassy corps -- national decisions? Spend some Admin or Diplo points? I just loathe when some other nation can just lay down a sabotage reputation, and you have no recourse. I would love to also have it that, if the spy is discovered, it does far more than just remove the malus. I'd love to have some blowback in the spying nation's direction. Perhaps my allies love me even more, or the spying nation's neighbors trust him less?

In any regard, I should not want to just toss a game ever again in the mid 18th Century because of AE build-up and huge looming but ineffective coalitions make the game turn into an 80 year sitzkrieg. That's what 1.5 brought. I thought Paradox learned that lesson before.
 

Saintrl

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The only country where there is a major internal political issue is China. But the way they have the three factions system set up makes it odious for me to play. I tried it once, saw that I had no direct control over how I wanted to take the country, and quit that game. It's sort of the same thing for the Orthodoxy slider; I've still yet to find any game where it should be less than 100% religious (you need the manpower and the missionary buff to convert all the provinces you take; and the way the economy system works, you can lose the money without minding it).

If you are going to have any sort of internal politics, there should be better ways for the player themselves to manage it; it should not be left up to the whims of random events.

My own personal desire is to see more of a way to manage zealousness (single-state religion, single culture) vs. pluralism (multi-religious, multi-cultural tolerance). There are advantages to converting the heathen, but there's also advantages to Marcus Aurelius' advice to let the people keep their superstitions.

I also think that the whole AE/OE/Coalitions system needs to be thought about better. I had no problem with it conceptually, but the problem is that the game seems to keep way, way too much AE for too long. You can't burn it off in a century.

OE also seems odd, in that the game now works to make you engage in moderately-scaled wars for 4-7 provinces every few years. Get close to (but not more than) 100% OE. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Coalitions, as has been mentioned in other threads, need to really to make sense. Random distant nations joining coalitions just makes for late-game sitzkrieg. I had a wonderful time playing Great Britain until about 1739, then saw the state of AE and the coalition built up, and.... then just deleted the whole saved game folder.

Speaking of which...

Feature requests:

1. "Make New Folder" and "Delete Folder" options under Save Game. Oh boy do I want to be able to save my games in different folders. I can do that manually now going into my machines' file system and creating folders, but why not just allow a player to instantly create a folder, or blow away a whole folder's worth of ancient saved games? Of course, there should be a confirmation button... but heck... This is not new computer science.

2. More modifiers for AE and OE. If you want to play with less AE and OE, to allow for more (or less) sweeping wars, let people monkey with these using sliders at game start. Either that, or allow some sort of national modifiers or event system to fire off, and create national or regional modifiers. ("Land grab in Asia!" 10% discount on OE for the next decade in Asian provinces; or "European regionalism stiffens..." 10% higher OE for the next decade in European provinces.)

3. More ways to *stop* "sabotage reputation." So far, the most I can do is create a the best anti-spy building in my capital. And... that's it? Come on! There has to be a way to make a secret police force, or a better embassy corps -- national decisions? Spend some Admin or Diplo points? I just loathe when some other nation can just lay down a sabotage reputation, and you have no recourse. I would love to also have it that, if the spy is discovered, it does far more than just remove the malus. I'd love to have some blowback in the spying nation's direction. Perhaps my allies love me even more, or the spying nation's neighbors trust him less?

In any regard, I should not want to just toss a game ever again in the mid 18th Century because of AE build-up and huge looming but ineffective coalitions make the game turn into an 80 year sitzkrieg. That's what 1.5 brought. I thought Paradox learned that lesson before.
Question, have you ever played the mod MEIOU & Taxes? Some of the things you are asking for are in that mod. :)
 

TheMeInTeam

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The only country where there is a major internal political issue is China. But the way they have the three factions system set up makes it odious for me to play. I tried it once, saw that I had no direct control over how I wanted to take the country, and quit that game

With Ming, you just push each faction to pretty close to even, then give whichever one you want in power a nudge.

It's not atypical to flop between Eunuch and Temple. Ming's real pain is when you manage to lose mandate of heaven...
 

PeterCorless

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If there are predominant optimal strategies, then it is a false choice, and should be revamped or removed. I'd probably just make it a policy stance that players can choose based on some annual "royal court:" At this year's royal court, which faction do you want to favor? There. Done. Set the policy for the year.

Yeah, Mandate of Heaven makes it rather odious to westernize. Meh. I don't care. I just won't play China now.

I'm finding more and more that there are some of these special 'zingers' that make me not want to play various nations. In other words, rather than being enticements -- Oh wow! Let me explore China and see what this is all about... -- instead, they are disincentives to exploration. I just get annoyed at the system and go back to something I feel doesn't artificially gink my gameplay.
 

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  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
Please don't add any more Papacy style minigames. I won't play a Catholic nation (one who stays Catholic) because I hate having to constantly open that screen to spend points. I think maybe other war options would be a good addition so there are other reasons you can start a war other than fabricating claims on territory (which has an AE cost). Trade wars are a good example (from embargos), but maybe another option or two would be good. I think these compaints about downtime from AE are way overblown though because you can go to war quite often without taking territory and incurring AE. I'm making loads of cash taking France's trade power and cash, no territory.