1.6 completely ruined historical borders

[Bismark776]

If you look at the states in yugoslavia you'll notice that they slightly changed the state borders for montenegro and macedonia to fit more with what they actually were considered to be contrary to the post invasion states where bulgaria also occupied the strip where pirot and vranya lie for example. Or to take an italian example the montenegro state used to basically circle around albania to represent those provinces that were annexed by the italian protectorate of albania. Thing thing being that as far as i know those parts never belonged to montenegro and so the only situation where that state border made sense was if italy occupied that part.

They also changed the polish states around a bit which has made the molotov ribbentrop pact borders a bit off i think. That again being an arbitrary line drawn by two occupying powers so I'm not even sure if state borders should be designed to fit around those specifically.

I wasn't trying to say it wasn't changed, just that it wasn't noticeable to me. Which makes sense, I rarely mess with yugo and when I do its a quick conquest, set garrison, then forget about it. I rarely use Molotov Ribbentrop either so I guess I'd never see those new lines as well.

 

[rutger9]

I wasn't trying to say it wasn't changed, just that it wasn't noticeable to me. Which makes sense, I rarely mess with yugo and when I do its a quick conquest, set garrison, then forget about it. I rarely use Molotov Ribbentrop either so I guess I'd never see those new lines as well.

Was just trying to clarify the issues as far as I see them as this thread seems to be full of hyperbole and overexxagerations. No offense meant.

 

[D3m0]

For me it's the thought behind the change that's the most alarming. It sets a bad precedent and might indicate where the game will be increasingly heading to in the future as well as who it's supposed to be catering to.
I mean they actively dedicated work time to make the game less of a WW2 game.

 

[praftd]

The melodrama in in this thread is silly. You'd think paradox killed your family.

Being unhappy with the changes is one thing its understandable. Crying blood and calling for boycotts is another another. And you wonder why people don't take "gamers" seriously.

Let's be real, most people wouldn't have even noticed without this thread. We've seen the boarders for weeks now, and yet nobody was outraged until now? Why now? Little late to the punch, guys.

 

[MrMcQue]

The reactions of some people where a little bit exaggerated but their complaints are justified and the fact that the changes had no impact on the gameplay does not mean that they are not important. These changes made the game significantly worse in the terms of historical accuracy and butchered the map in Europe. There are people that actually care about the map and the borders and this change had negative impact. Why dont we have modern day borders in Imperator: Rome? Why dont we have borders from antiquity in Victoria II?

Because... modern day borders are literally the result of WW2? I agree that historical Molotov-Ribb. etc. borders are important but i don't understand the disregard for "modern day" borders in a game about the war that shaped them. Even more if you realize that the borders that people complain about will be only seen in a short timeline since i don't expect most players to invade Poland and then chill with Molotov-Ribbentropp borders until 1948.

 

[MrDziurkacz]

We've seen the boarders for weeks now, and yet nobody was outraged until now? Why now? Little late to the punch, guys.

Sorry, but that's not true. Problems mentioned here were addressed backing to DD about new tags and border adjustments, were devs acknowledged the problem mentioned and it was sed, that they will look into this. Then there was another DD where they showed a change to polish victory points aka "cities". No important border change was made, so the questions about this were asked after each DD with no further Dev response till this post...

 

[Syntalynder]

A mod has corrected the modern borders to the historical ones: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1669763142

Suggestion for Paradox: guys, why not correct the borders back to historical ones and just have a mod for the modern borders?

 

[Gray_Lensman]

A mod has corrected the modern borders to the historical ones: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1669763142

Wow, that was mighty fast work for a modder! Kudos to the modder!!! I might just reinstall this game after all if the reports are confirmed regarding carrier air ops not losing massively to land air.

Suggestion for Paradox: guys, why not correct the borders back to historical ones and just have a mod for the modern borders?

Because that just wouldn't make sense, /s LOL

 

[Feeblezak]

Modern day mods typically already mod the map. This feature was not needed or desired. Just load up millennium dawn yourself and see the changes and additions of states to suit the scenario.

This started a while back when Poland’s states were changed for the benefit of the utterly ridiculous “Bring back the Kaiser” tree line so people could, for whatever reason, recreate Germany’s WW1 borders. Instead of making another state, they just made Danzig huge.

This of course has the amusing side effect that when Germany does Danzig or War, they are effectively demanding a full fifth of Polish territory. A demand even more unreasonable than IRL.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

Modern day mods typically already mod the map. This feature was not needed or desired. Just load up millennium dawn yourself and see the changes and additions of states to suit the scenario.

This started a while back when Poland’s states were changed for the benefit of the utterly ridiculous “Bring back the Kaiser” tree line so people could, for whatever reason, recreate Germany’s WW1 borders. Instead of making another state, they just made Danzig huge.

This of course has the amusing side effect that when Germany does Danzig or War, they are effectively demanding a full fifth of Polish territory. A demand even more unreasonable than IRL.

Is there a mod which reduces Danzig to a city state?

 

[praftd]

So is this an issue with the 1936 borders? Because I just loaded it up and compared it to the historic borders on a map and it isn't all that far off. I mean, a little bit, but that has always been the case since release.

 

[Feeblezak]

Is there a mod which reduces Danzig to a city state?

I don’t know but I’m almost positive their is one. There’s a mod for pretty much everything.

 

[Parmelion]

So is this an issue with the 1936 borders? Because I just loaded it up and comprared it to the historic borders on a map and it isn't all that far off. I mean, a little bit, but that has always been the case since release.

No, 1936 are pretty much fine, they are not very accurate and could be depicted in a better way but they are ok. The problem is that the change made to the areas affects the borders which existed during the war, like previously mentioned Molotov-Ribbentrop borders or the partitions of Yugoslavia.

 

[praftd]

No, 1936 are pretty much fine, they are not very accurate and could be depicted in a better way but they are ok. The problem is that the change made to the areas affects the borders which existed during the war, like previously mentioned Molotov-Ribbentrop borders or the partitions of Yugoslavia.

Then this more explains why they made the decisions they did. HOI4 doesn't work like WW2 actually worked. Border changes, except for event spawned ones, only exist in two states, occupied or post-war annexation. There is no non-event driven partitioning that happens during war.

So that leaves the choice, design the counties to reflect war boarders that never actually existed officially or post-war boarders that did. I can see an arguement for both. The German-Russian Polish partition seems to be a casuality of this.

So they have to pick the post-war side or the during war side, they picked post war. The only way to please both sides would be to make many more small counties which they don't want to do. Seems pretty split on which people prefer. But when you realize most borders are determined after WW2 ends, it makes sense why they chose what they did; they wanted Europe to be similar to how Europe looked after the war, because most game boarders are drawn after WW2 ends in game.


So the real question is whether or not you can make Europe look similar to how it did in 1948 (national borders not how they were occupied between powers). If yes, then it isn't a completely random decision and makes sense. If no, then it should be fixed.

 

[Robosoldier1]

is anyone seriously surprised? Most of you all flaunted with the idea of having more and more alternative fantasy in the game. And now your shocked paradox is veering into this stupid paradigm shift of doing everything possible to shift farther and farther away from the 2nd world war? At this point they treat the initial premise of their game more as a foundational footnote then a relevant selling point. Cause ya know Hearts of Europa 4 Cold War edition is just so much more enticing I guess.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

is anyone seriously surprised? Most of you all flaunted with the idea of having more and more alternative fantasy in the game. And now your shocked paradox is veering into this stupid paradigm shift of doing everything possible to shift farther and farther away from the 2nd world war? At this point they treat the initial premise of their game more as a foundational footnote then a relevant selling point. Cause ya know Hearts of Europa 4 Cold War edition is just so much more enticing I guess.

YES! Exactly.this. I SALUTE YOU!

 

[Th3master]

is anyone seriously surprised? Most of you all flaunted with the idea of having more and more alternative fantasy in the game. And now your shocked paradox is veering into this stupid paradigm shift of doing everything possible to shift farther and farther away from the 2nd world war? At this point they treat the initial premise of their game more as a foundational footnote then a relevant selling point. Cause ya know Hearts of Europa 4 Cold War edition is just so much more enticing I guess.

I think people were more hinting at "What if Japan attacked the USSR and not China?" or "What if France attacked Germany early on in the war?" instead of "What if 8 random countries had fascist and communist uprisings out of nowhere and by the way the Kaiser now controls Germany and there's 5 Civil Wars and I'm sure how, but Australia-Hungary appeared on the map?"

 

[hkrommel]

So can someone clarify this dumpster fire of a thread for me?

1. What are "historical" borders? Are we talking mid-war borders based on how Germany sliced up Europe?
2. What are "modern" borders? Are they modern-day borders or the borders that were decided at the end of the war (which are pretty close to my knowledge)?

If modern borders are simply along immediate postwar lines I don't understand what the issue is. Yeah it screws up "what if the Axis won" but since those borders actually existed historically within the game's timeframe, you'd think they get priority. Unless I'm totally missing something here this seems like a non-issue.

 

[Sultan Suleiman]

So can someone clarify this dumpster fire of a thread for me?

1. What are "historical" borders? Are we talking mid-war borders based on how Germany sliced up Europe?
2. What are "modern" borders? Are they modern-day borders or the borders that were decided at the end of the war (which are pretty close to my knowledge)?

If modern borders are simply along immediate postwar lines I don't understand what the issue is. Yeah it screws up "what if the Axis won" but since those borders actually existed historically within the game's timeframe, you'd think they get priority. Unless I'm totally missing something here this seems like a non-issue.

You've hit the nail on the head. "Historical," in this context, is being defined as the war-time occupation zones, while "modern" the post-war map.

So, essentially, those arguing for "historicity" are actually endorsing an alt-history, Axis-victory scenario, while the slovenly masses can't grasp the offensiveness of PDX favoring the borders Allied leaders actually drew up. Your guess is as good as mine here.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Louella]

1. What are "historical" borders? Are we talking mid-war borders based on how Germany sliced up Europe?
2. What are "modern" borders? Are they modern-day borders or the borders that were decided at the end of the war (which are pretty close to my knowledge)?

1. Historical borders seem to be including pre-WW1 borders from various points in time, post-WW1 borders, territorial changes up to the outbreak of WW2, territorial changes during WW2 between different entities, and lines such as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

2. Modern borders seem to be including the immediate post-war borders, and various alterations made up to the early 1950's.