1.5 - Changes for Subjects: Protectorates/CNs/Vas/PU; Independence; feeding; more

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Yxklyx

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I'm confused. If you enforce peace against your colonial nation won't you be at war with them? Which would make no sense so what is the result?

You Enforce Peace with the CN or Protectorate's opposing war leader and select your CN/Protectorate's shield - so you would then be on the side of your subject. Don't forget you need +100 relations with your subject to do this - at least I'm pretty sure that's still the case.
 

TheBloke

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I'm confused. If you enforce peace against your colonial nation won't you be at war with them? Which would make no sense so what is the result?

Normally you can only Enforce Peace on the attacker, where you select the defender you want to protect.

You are not called into the wars of your Colonial Nations automatically when they are fighting other CNs or Natives. If you want to intercede in the war, you have to Enforce Peace.

If your CN was DOW'd - i.e. they are the defender - then the procedure is as normal; you Enforce Peace on the attacking warleader, and choose to protect your CN.

If your CN was the one who DOW'd - i.e. they are the attacker, then you still Enforce Peace on the other side - it would make even less sense to Enforce Peace on your own CN, just because they are the attacker! So in this scenario, you are Enforce Peace'ing on the defender.

So:

I am Great Britain. My CN is Thirteen Colonies. Thirteen Colonies is attacked by French Canada. I want to join this war. I Enforce Peace on the Diplomacy screen of French Canada (the attacking WL), and choose to protect Thirteen Colonies. I join the war on the side of Thirteen Colonies. This is a normal Enforce Peace.

I am Great Britain. My CN is Thirteen Colonies. Thirteen Colonies attacks French Canada. I want to join this war. I Enforce Peace on the Diplomacy screen of French Canada (the defending WL), and choose to protect Thirteen Colonies. I join the war on the side of Thirteen Colonies. This is the special case for defending Colonial Nations. The operations performed are identical as for the first case, but it's unusual because this is the only time in the game when I Enforce Peace on the screen of a defending nation.

And apparently all this applies to a Protectorate when they DOW another nation, too. (There's no need to Enforce Peace when your Protectorate is themselves DOW'd, because you'll be auto called in that situation.)
 

Bud_Backer

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Oh yes that makes it a lot clearer.

I always thought that to enforce peace you had to have good relations with the country you are sending the demands to, but I guess that's not the case.

Thanks, Bloke!
 

Saintrl

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I've noticed some oddities with vassals when I'm a protectorate. In my Ethiopia game, I became a protectorate of Portugal. Then the Mamlukes were reduced to 3 provinces, so I rushed in and vassalized them. Then what happened next was really strange. Mamlukes happened to be in a defensive war against Tripoli but instead of me joining the war defending the Mamlukes I just ended watching, unable to enforce peace even at +100. I'm still scratching my head as to why I didn't automatically join the war. What's strange is I still got income from The Mamlukes like they were my vassal but I couldn't defend them in their own war! I think this might be a glitch but I'm not sure since there's protectorates involved. It's probably worth mentioning that Portugal was a PU minor under Spain so there's a stupid amount of vassal chaining going on.
 

TheBloke

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I've noticed some oddities with vassals when I'm a protectorate. In my Ethiopia game, I became a protectorate of Portugal. Then the Mamlukes were reduced to 3 provinces, so I rushed in and vassalized them. Then what happened next was really strange. Mamlukes happened to be in a defensive war against Tripoli but instead of me joining the war defending the Mamlukes I just ended watching, unable to enforce peace even at +100. I'm still scratching my head as to why I didn't automatically join the war. What's strange is I still got income from The Mamlukes like they were my vassal but I couldn't defend them in their own war! I think this might be a glitch but I'm not sure since there's protectorates involved. It's probably worth mentioning that Portugal was a PU minor under Spain so there's a stupid amount of vassal chaining going on.

Yeah it's a known bug - subjects of subjects don't call their overlords into their wars. It's fixed in the Open Beta hotfix 1.5.0.4 which will become 1.5.1 when it's released.
 

Saintrl

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Yeah it's a known bug - subjects of subjects don't call their overlords into their wars. It's fixed in the Open Beta hotfix 1.5.0.4 which will become 1.5.1 when it's released.
Aww shoot, that might explain why Portugal wasn't able to defend me when the Ottomans came knockin'. :/
Thanks for the info, definitely gonna switch to the open beta now. I wonder how this'll work with old saves though. Only one way to find out! :D
 

Loveeulongtime

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Just installed 1.5, first thing that I dislike is the new (or I never noticed this before lol) "Number of Great Power allies for (player)". My centuries old allies Mughals just broke off their alliance with me for no apparent reason, this new modifier is the only thing I can think of. Their opinion of me is 165, my opinion of them 43 (should be 93 if not for -50 broken alliance modifier) and to their North is Russia that can crush them without my alliance, I went to war with them 4 times, and I've fed them some 7-8 vassals from neighboring countries to make them better ally... I get that the new modifier probably to loosen the deadlock that happen when Major nations ally with each other but it shouldn't take precedence over nation's own interest...
 

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Just installed 1.5, first thing that I dislike is the new (or I never noticed this before lol) "Number of Great Power allies for (player)". My centuries old allies Mughals just broke off their alliance with me for no apparent reason, this new modifier is the only thing I can think of. Their opinion of me is 165, my opinion of them 43 (should be 93 if not for -50 broken alliance modifier) and to their North is Russia that can crush them without my alliance, I went to war with them 4 times, and I've fed them some 7-8 vassals from neighboring countries to make them better ally... I get that the new modifier probably to loosen the deadlock that happen when Major nations ally with each other but it shouldn't take precedence over nation's own interest...

This is fixed in the New Beta. Old alliances won't break any longer and the modifier is reduced to -50.
 

Loveeulongtime

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This is fixed in the New Beta. Old alliances won't break any longer and the modifier is reduced to -50.

Thanks for the reply, that's actually great news! (old alliances part is what I like the most, now that I've put a couple of hours playing though, the -100 modifier isn't so bad as it will let you to have 2 major nations as ally while the rest you can get medium size ally/vassals, it actually opened up the game more for the most part)
 

DominusNovus

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What happens to your vassals if you westernize, and they're a tech that would be turned into a protectorate by western nations?
 

frolix42

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Thank you TheBloke. Your work is appreciated.

Is there any news on making the which provinces vassals have "strategic interest" in viewable to the player? This is in regard the vassal feeding strategy (or exploit).

I am aware that Aggressive Personalities are most likely to have "strategic interest", but a concrete list that you can view without the console would be nice.

Or is "strategic interest" for vassals beyond cores, claims, previously cored lands meant to be unknowable to the player?
 
Last edited:

TheBloke

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Is the war-on-CN-protectorate-breaking-CN-relationship bug back as of this 1.5.1 patch? This guy in the quick questions thread seems to have discovered a variant of it today: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ck-answers&p=17002854&viewfull=1#post17002854

Humm. I haven't specifically tested for it in 1.5.1. In 1.5 and its betas I tested many permutations of subjects and "overlrod chains", but it did not occur to me to test ta situation where the Protectorate was allied with its own overlord! I did not realise that was even possible. I confirmed in 1.5 that making a nation Protectorate would cancel all existing alliances for that Protectorate. I also confirmed that the Protectorate could then make new alliances. But I did not realise that that would include allying with its overlord! I would have thought that for a player nation, the Diplomatic option to Ally with your Overlord would be greyed out

It's something I will try and test later today and come back to the Q&A thread to let you kow where we are.

Thank you TheBloke. Your work is appreciated.

Is there any news on making the which provinces vassals have "strategic interest" in viewable to the player? This is in regard the vassal feeding strategy (or exploit).

I am aware that Aggressive Personalities are most likely to have "strategic interest", but a concrete list that you can view without the console would be nice.

Or is "strategic interest" for vassals beyond cores, claims, previously cored lands meant to be unknowable to the player?

I'm afraid Strategic Interest factoring into buying provinces is now gone.

The rules for subjects are detailed in Section B of my document - they will buy any of your cores, and they will buy anything that is their core, their claim, or that they have previously owned. They won't buy anything else. Their Strategic Interest, which was based on what provinces they actually wanted (as per Wants to Conquer AI assessment, and influenced by their AI leader personality) has been removed from the Sell Province mechanic. It was in the game only for patch 1.4/1.4.1.
 

MiniaAr

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I'm afraid Strategic Interest factoring into buying provinces is now gone.

The rules for subjects are detailed in Section B of my document - they will buy any of your cores, and they will buy anything that is their core, their claim, or that they have previously owned. They won't buy anything else. Their Strategic Interest, which was based on what provinces they actually wanted (as per Wants to Conquer AI assessment, and influenced by their AI leader personality) has been removed from the Sell Province mechanic. It was in the game only for patch 1.4/1.4.1.
Which is too bad, I really liked trying to know my vassals' personnalities better. :(
 

Loveeulongtime

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With 1.5 it seems more nations uses coalition now, and I haven't had much experience dealing with one until now. I just ended a war with a 3 nations coalition and a couple years later Vijaynagar joined the coalition against me also, I declared war against Vijaynagar soon after and to my surprise the other 3 nations in the coalition joined in also even though we still have a 3 years truce... how is that possible? Shouldn't truce supersede coalitions? at the very least those 3 nations should've taken a stability hit imo (can't confirm whether they did or not because I didn't pay attention to their stability :p)
 

grommile

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I just ended a war with a 3 nations coalition and a couple years later Vijaynagar joined the coalition against me also, I declared war against Vijaynagar soon after and to my surprise the other 3 nations in the coalition joined in also even though we still have a 3 years truce... how is that possible? Shouldn't truce supersede coalitions?
At release time, it did. This was deliberately changed.
 

Loveeulongtime

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At release time, it did. This was deliberately changed.

I guess in one hand it does makes coalition more effective, but on the other hand it forces a 5 years truce cap on players if their neighboring countries joins the coalition, which seems to be the trend now... which is silly since I can't declare war when over-extension low now, instead have to wait a few more years for the truce to expire
 

Yxklyx

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I'm finding that coalitions are not effective for AI nations trying to stop other AI nations - which is one of its purposes is it not? France is growing and growing and growing into HRE territory. In the last war they vassalized a 3 province Baden and annexed a province they didn't have a claim on. A coalition of about 4 HRE nations was formed but by the time the truce for that war was over the coalition had been dissolved.