1.5 - Changes for Subjects: Protectorates/CNs/Vas/PU; Independence; feeding; more

[TheBloke]

If Denmark's only worth 23 base tax at the game's outset, you should be able to annex them before prestige becomes a factor. If you think Sweden's gonna get uppity, you could truce break to head them off. Just thinking aloud here.

Denmark is 33 BT - or at least it was in 1.3.2. And that's 33 BT from adding up the gross BT of each province; with building modifiers and the other factors that impact WS requirements added on top, it's more.

 

[FrigidSoul]

Denmark is 33 BT - or at least it was in 1.3.2. And that's 33 BT from adding up the gross BT of each province; with building modifiers and the other factors that impact WS requirements added on top, it's more.

Right, my fault. Was conflating diplovassalization requirements with military requirements. Even so, 33 BT is less than 2 wars*, and BT-enhancing buildings are rare at the beginning of the game.

(* - That is, Denmark's own territory would take less than two wars to fully annex, but I'm not sure if the PU territory would raise war score requirements to annex the senior partner.)

 

[TheBloke]

Right, my fault. Was conflating diplovassalization requirements with military requirements. Even so, 33 BT is less than 2 wars, and BT-enhancing buildings are rare at the beginning of the game.

Yeah, I think it'd definitely be worth trying to achieve.

I really like that annexation now transfers subjects. I think it's going to encourage a lot of interesting and fun strategies and goals. And it's cool that it's Full Annex only, not vassalisation - it means that you can't take the easy way out, vassalising them for low AE and then annexing them later to get the subjects; if you want those subjects you've got to Full Annex them now, with all the AE and coalition implications of that.

High risk, high reward.

 

[Deadstuff]

Hej there Paradox interactive.
Nice patch note but I don't understand what you mean with the tech grid.
there a lot of abbreviations I don't know can you explain it a little better plz.
Thanks
Keep up the good work

 

[unmerged(798670)]

Does annexation of the emperor give you the emperorship, and if not do you get all of the vassals if enough reforms have been passed?

 

[Arrianus]

Super Post, TheBloke
thank you!

I don't understand what you mean with the tech grid.
there a lot of abbreviations I don't know

The Abbreviations are the different techgroups listet on the left side;
f.e. W = Western, ... , SA = South American

 

[FrigidSoul]

Yeah, I think it'd definitely be worth trying to achieve.

I really like that annexation now transfers subjects. I think it's going to encourage a lot of interesting and fun strategies and goals. And it's cool that it's Full Annex only, not vassalisation - it means that you can't take the easy way out, vassalising them for low AE and then annexing them later to get the subjects; if you want those subjects you've got to Full Annex them now, with all the AE and coalition implications of that.

High risk, high reward.

Totally agreed. I'm loving this new wrinkle. It's probably my favorite thing about the patch, and I might not have even noticed it if not for your thread.

 

[TheBloke]

Hej there Paradox interactive.
Nice patch note but I don't understand what you mean with the tech grid.
there a lot of abbreviations I don't know can you explain it a little better plz.
Thanks
Keep up the good work

I'm not part of Paradox

The Abbreviations are the different techgroups listet on the left side;
f.e. W = Western, ... , SA = South American

Yes. DeadStuff: also see this page for a general guide to more EU4 terms: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Jargon I also recommend reading the manual and generally around on the Wiki to understand more of the concepts. That table I copied from the Wiki, and then added new columns for the Protectorate information. Here's the original, which will explain more about Technology Groups in general: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Technology#Groups

 

[TheBloke]

Annexing the HRE Emperor

Does annexation of the emperor give you the emperorship, and if not do you get all of the vassals if enough reforms have been passed?

Hehe, this is interesting.. but not overall that good, in terms of you being able to get good stuff out of doing it anyway.

1. I started a 1579 bookmark game as Austria
2. In my first test, I simply annexed Austria as France, without Austria passing any reforms.
   1. This caused a normal HRE election, as would be expected.
3. Starting another game as Austria, I used imperial_authority 100 to get them through all reforms up to and including Revoke
4. They were thus hereditary emperor, with most HRE nations as privileged vassals (i.e. DipRel free)
5. Then I saved and loaded as France, and annexed Austria with: annex HAB
6. The Emperor is still, apparently, Austria - once the Emperor is hereditary, it does not change on annex.
   1. there was no new election, and after playing a couple more months, it still says Austria is Emperor.
   2. Possibly it's now stuck, unless I release Austria again.
7. I got all the vassals as expected. But they're no longer privileged, they're normal DipRel-costing vassals
   • Spoiler

     
8. I cannot pass any Reforms
9. However, it does understand that I have control over the HRE - and I have the option to Dismantle it:
   • Spoiler

     
10. I then chose to Release as Vassal on Austria, and chose to Play as Release Nation
    1. As expected, Austria functioned as HRE Emperor once released.
    2. As Austria, I can pass reforms again.
11. I then wanted to roll back the Revoke reform
    1. So as France, I DOW'd Austria, my vassal
    2. Got 100% WS, Console: winwars
    3. Rolled back the last reform.
12. Then, as Austria again, I enacted Revoke again
    1. As expected, this gave me back all the vassals - transferring them automatically from France to Austria, and making them Privileged again.

Summary:

• Annexing the HRE Emperor will not make you Emperor
  • If Erbkaisertum has not been passed, a normal HRE Election occurs
  • If Erbkaisertum has been passed, such that it's hereditary, the Emperorship will simply be 'frozen' - it's still marked as being taken by the now-annexed previous nation.
    • It will be re-activated if that nation exists again, e.g. Released as Vassal.
• Annexing the HRE Emperor will transfer all its subjects, as usual - including all the HRE Vassals, if Revoke has been passed
• But they are transferred as normal vassals, not privileged
  • Because in fact, the 'privileged vassal' status is not a setting on the vassal itself, it's a feature added to the HRE Emperor, because he's HRE Emperor;
  • So you can't have privileged vassals unless you are the Emperor and Ewiger has been passed.
  • I now remember that I already knew that - I discovered it previously when trying to find a way of modding in privileged (DipRel-free) vassals outside of the HRE.

 

[unmerged(798670)]

I cannot pass any Reforms
However, it does understand that I have control over the HRE - and I have the option to Dismantle it:
I then chose to Release as Vassal on Austria, and chose to Play as Release Nation

That's so weird that you're like 1/3rd the emperor in that scenario. As france can you offer to repeal imperial reforms as a concession? or perhaps if you release austria as a french vassal then attack someone else? I'm curious what happens with the emperor as a vassal when an election comes up, or if he revokes while himself being a vassal.

Makes me wonder WTF would happen if you added france to the HRE and revoked while a vassal of france.

 

[Golladan]

I really like that annexation now transfers subjects.

That's not new. Annexing someone through war gave your their vassals since at least 1.4

 

[No-Flag]

Now that was an interesting read.
Thanks for the hard work, TheBloke.

 

[TheBloke]

That's not new. Annexing someone through war gave your their vassals since at least 1.4

Yes OK, true - it's new that it transfers CNs, PUs and Protectorates.

 

[TheBloke]

That's so weird that you're like 1/3rd the emperor in that scenario. As france can you offer to repeal imperial reforms as a concession? or perhaps if you release austria as a french vassal then attack someone else? I'm curious what happens with the emperor as a vassal when an election comes up, or if he revokes while himself being a vassal.

No, I cannot offer to Revoke a reform - either as a direct annexer of the HRE Emperor, or as the overlord of the HRE emperor in a war in which the HRE emperor is a participant.

Makes me wonder WTF would happen if you added france to the HRE and revoked while a vassal of france.

Haha now that is a good thought! Sadly nothing too exciting happens:

1. 1579 start as Austria
2. Passed all reforms upto and including Erbkaisertum (hereditary Emperor)
3. Tag switch to Bohemia
4. Annexed Austria, and Released as Vassal
5. Tag switch back to Austria
6. Enact Revoke
7. Austria gets all the privileged vassals, including Bohemia
8. So Austria is now an independent nation, with Bohemia (and all the rest) as vassal: they have swapped places.

What was slightly more interesting was when I loaded a save as Bohemia, at the point of step 4 of the above list - so I am Bohemia, Austria is my vassal - forgetting that Austria still had 100 IA. They of course immediately implemented Revoke (so yes, a subject nation HRE Emperor will pass reforms.)

As Bohemia, I was given the choice of whether to accept vassalisation under Austria, or decline; I chose the latter, which would normally put me at war with the Emperor I think, but in this case just meant Austria got a bunch of claims, a relations malus, but Austria remained my vassal. So I was Bohemia with one vassal, Austria, and Austria had all of its 43 privileged vassals. That's actually a good position to be in for me - at that stage in the game, I don't want all those vassals myself, because I can't be emperor and therefore I can't get them privileged. But if my vassal has them, then they will be privileged for them, and I will still have control of them because any war I start will be joined by Austria and then joined by all its vassals.

But it might be tricky to achieve that in the normal course of the game. It would be easy enough (well, possible enough) to vassalise Austria when it has passed all reforms except Revoke. But once vassalised, it's going to have trouble getting enough IA to pass Revoke; it will lack its normal diplomatic options for building IA. That said, maybe you can help it out. If you declare and win wars that naturally call in the Emperor, then probably he gains IA based on the result.

So yes, perhaps one could manage and benefit the HRE at one step removed. You don't get any of the direct modifier benefits - increased DipRep, Tax revenue etc - but you could potentially control the same number of vassal armies, by virtue of controlling the HRE emperor who controls them. It could thus be a way for a non-eligible nation - Muslim or whatever - to take charge of the HRE and get many of its benefits.

It would certainly be fun to try

(Actually, while I was doing some testing as Bohemia-with-Austria-Emperor-as-vassal, the IA went up from 0 to 6; some action occurred naturally that gave him some. So yes one could almost certainly get enough IA eventually for the AI to pass Revoke.)

 

[TheRevanchist]

And from previous experience, if you vassalize the emperor, it's instant election. Not sure what happens if Erbkaisertum has been passed though.

 

[TheBloke]

And from previous experience, if you vassalize the emperor, it's instant election. Not sure what happens if Erbkaisertum has been passed though.

Read post #129 and find out

 

[Wolfeson]

B. Changes applying to all Subjects and the Subject/Overlord relationship


1. Transference and Cancelling of Subjects

• All subjects are transferred when their overlord is annexed
  1. When an Overlord is annexed or integrated, all of their subjects will transfer to the nation who annexes them.
  2. Subjects are transferred via all types of annex of their former overlord:
     • Full Annex through war
     • DipAnnexation of a vassal
     • DipIntegration of a PU-minor
  3. All subject types are transferred:
     • PU-minors (even if the annexing nation, the new overlord, is a Republic or Papacy who could not normally have them.)
     • Vassals
     • Colonial Nations
     • Protectorates
  4. The transfer of subjects happens very simply - it's like a 'search and replace': old overlord changes to new overlord, and nothing else.
     • Any and all subjects of the nation that was annexed/integrated have their Overlord changed to being the annexing nation.
     • So, if Castile annexes Portugal, when Portugal had a Colonial Nation (Portuguese Brazil) and a Protectorate (Kilwa):
       • Castile is now the overlord of Portuguese Brazil and Kilwa, on top of any other subjects it already had for itself.
     • Hence you can get somewhat unusual situations, like a Republic who now has PU-minor subjects; even though that would be impossible normally in the game.

One question on this, what happens if you annex a nation who had a vassal that would be a protectorate relative to your tech group? For example, I'm playing Austria (Western) and I annex Oman (Muslim) who had Sind (Indian) as a vassal. Obviously Sind would transfer to my control, but would it become my vassal (old overlord changes to new overlord and nothing else), or would they become my protectorate, since that's what would normally happen between a Western and an Indian nation?

Thank you so much for this clear and comprehensive list. It makes life so much easier knowing there's one place to go for all the information.

 

[TheBloke]

One question on this, what happens if you annex a nation who had a vassal that would be a protectorate relative to your tech group? For example, I'm playing Austria (Western) and I annex Oman (Muslim) who had Sind (Indian) as a vassal. Obviously Sind would transfer to my control, but would it become my vassal (old overlord changes to new overlord and nothing else), or would they become my protectorate, since that's what would normally happen between a Western and an Indian nation?

See point 1.A.4 - it is a 'search and replace' change. If they were a subject of the annexed nation then they are now a subject of you, and they are the same type of subject. Even if that would not normally be possible.

So:

• a Republic that annexes a Kingdom could get some PU-minors, even though Republics can never normally make PUs.
• A Western nation that annexes an Eastern nation could get some Indian vassals, even though a Western nation cannot normally make Indian nations into vassals

The overlord simply switches from the old nation to your nation, regardless of circumstance. If you were to then lose those nations as subjects for some reason you wouldn't be able to get them back. But you can take them in an annex just fine.

Thank you so much for this clear and comprehensive list. It makes life so much easier knowing there's one place to go for all the information.

Thanks, glad to help!

 

[yahiko]

Very good job.

Given all those details, I would like to know the pros and cons of each of them (Vassal / Protectorate / Colonial Nation).

 

[TheBloke]

Given all those details, I would like to know the pros and cons of each of them (Vassal / Protectorate / Colonial Nation).

• Vassals cost a DipRelation, pay you 50% of their tax income, join all your wars, provide force limits, and can be annexed.
• Protectorates do not cost a DipRel, give you 50% of their trade power, do not join any of your wars (but you must join their defensive wars), do not provide force limits, and cannot be annexed.
  • They generally have far fewer uses than vassals, and their presence is more to block/delay the player than it is to benefit him;
    • the exceptions being a strongly trade-focused strategy, and those going for the World Conquest achievement, where the lands of all your subjects, including Protectorates, counts towards the achievement.
• Colonial Nations give you 50% Trade Power, and then a % of all their income which is set by the Tariff %
  • They are mandatory in the New World once you have 5 or more cored provinces in a given Colonial Region. Elsewhere in the world, they are never available (but might come in later patches/DLCs)
  • They join all your wars, but won't help send troops outside the New World
  • They can make their own wars against other CNs and against natives; you are not called in, but can intercede if you wish (via Enforce Peace)
  • They are more likely to declare independence than other subjects, and will always do so once their Liberty Desire reaches 100%.
  • You have some say over their leader, with the ability to elect him (at the cost of increased Liberty Desire)

There aren't really any either/or choices in subject types. There's never a situation where you can say "should I make this nation a vassal, or a protectorate?" Nor really can you say "should I have a Colonial Nation, or not?"

That's a shame in my view, in particular I would prefer it if one could choose whether to vassalise or protectorise a lower tech nation, with different costs and rewards for each. But that is not currently the case.

So it's more about understanding what each one can do for you when you get it, rather than deciding which types to get.