1.5 and Pop Ethics

[Madzai]

If anything removing modifiers applied to pops because of your government would mean the traits mater more again.

But it also limits our ability to tune our Empire toward selected strategy. I mean, before we had both Ethic bonuses and traits. Now we have traits only. And, under new species rights system, it feels like we can only rely on our own species, as getting another species with desirable traits in Empire and keeping it reasonably happy going to be a hell of a task. But maybe some of the former Ethic bonuses will migrate into corresponding Government Forms? Or Government Ethics will give some Empire-wide bonuses?

 

[The Founder]

I mean, before we had both Ethic bonuses and traits. Now we have traits only.

Traits, Traditions and Technology.
If Traditions take over all of the Ethos Effects and Ethos limited technology, they would be the better version of what we have already. Because you are able to tailor your empire even better then you can right now.

And, under new species rights system, it feels like we can only rely on our own species, as getting another species with desirable traits in Empire and keeping it reasonably happy going to be a hell of a task.

How did you got to that idea?
If anything it becomes easier as now every playstyle can convert the bulk of the pops. With Xenophilia/Phobia, just having unenslaved pops on the same planet shifts you towards Philia.
If you are a Multispecies player, you just do what you always did - give them equal rights and standart of living. Done.

 

[Madzai]

Traits, Traditions and Technology.
If Traditions take over all of the Ethos Effects and Ethos limited technology, they would be the better version of what we have already. Because you are able to tailor your empire even better then you can right now.

Yeah, forgot about traditions. Those would help a lot. Hope they don't restrict certain playstyle into almost mandatory selection of certain sets of traditions.

How did you got to that idea?
If anything it becomes easier as now every playstyle can convert the bulk of the pops. With Xenophilia/Phobia, just having unenslaved pops on the same planet shifts you towards Philia.

Because i'm always prepared for the worst?
Can convert the bulk of the population? You can put it this way - but also mean that part of the population will always have undesirable ethics, as Ethics attraction works per Ethics, and if those POPs will be unhappy they could spoil a lot of blood though Factions systems.

If you are a Multispecies player, you just do what you always did - give them equal rights and standart of living. Done.

And get shocked by Factions if those POP pursue agenda, different from your Empire or just unhappy because of some policy.

 

[The Founder]

Because i'm always prepared for the worst?
Can convert the bulk of the population? You can put it this way - but also mean that part of the population will always have undesirable ethics, as Ethics attraction works per Ethics, and if those POPs will be unhappy they could spoil a lot of blood though Factions systems.

How much danger can 5% Xenophobes pose to a 95% neutral too Xenophile Empire?
That is like saying the KKK and Neonazi's are a danger to world peace, because they have not been eliminated 100% in the western world. Wich is evidently not true.

Also on top of the Empire level atration, there is the pop level atraction. It could well be that 5% of the pops should be Xenophobes. But no pop actually is, because they all life hapily with aliens (so the per-pop Xenophile atraction is too high).

 

[Madzai]

How much danger can 5% Xenophobes pose to a 95% neutral too Xenophile Empire?
That is like saying the KKK and Neonazi's are a danger to world peace, because they have not been eliminated 100% in the western world. Wich is evidently not true.

Also on top of the Empire level atration, there is the pop level atraction. It could well be that 5% of the pops should be Xenophobes. But no pop actually is, because they all life hapily with aliens (so the per-pop Xenophile atraction is too high).

You seems to forgot about factions (or i completely misunderstood how they works). If we have some unhappy POPs, we can only deal with them only on Species level. Now, unhappy POPs join a faction. In best case scenario it join some useless faction (or just a faction that directly oppose your policy) you can suppress. But what if it join some useful faction and start spoiling overall Faction happiness? And if i, again, understood the faction system right, a few unhappy POPs could shift overall faction happiness quite a lot.

And KKK is bad example, because unlike in Steallris, IRL, Government have the whole set of abilities to deal with one unruly POP. And in Stellaris terms, KKK would probably be a xenophobic faction that again, could be suppressed.

 

[Peko?]

You seems to forgot about factions (or i completely misunderstood how they works). If we have some unhappy POPs, we can only deal with them only on Species level. Now, unhappy POPs join a faction. In best case scenario it join some useless faction (or just a faction that directly oppose your policy) you can suppress. But what if it join some useful faction and start spoiling overall Faction happiness? And if i, again, understood the faction system right, a few unhappy POPs could shift overall faction happiness quite a lot.

1) Faction affiliation affects happiness not the other way around.
2) Faction happiness is not an average of POP happiness, it's a measure of how your actions correspond to the factions interests.

 

[gbromios]

I wonder whether given the new focus on the interplay between pops, ethics, and factions, whether it will be possible to change empire ethics in 1.5

 

[Peko?]

I wonder whether given the new focus on the interplay between pops, ethics, and factions, whether it will be possible to change empire ethics in 1.5

Yes, that will be possible.

 

[The Founder]

You seems to forgot about factions (or i completely misunderstood how they works). If we have some unhappy POPs, we can only deal with them only on Species level. Now, unhappy POPs join a faction. In best case scenario it join some useless faction (or just a faction that directly oppose your policy) you can suppress. But what if it join some useful faction and start spoiling overall Faction happiness? And if i, again, understood the faction system right, a few unhappy POPs could shift overall faction happiness quite a lot.

You definetly did not understand how faction mechanics work in 1.5 (wich is exactly Opposite to how they worked pre 1.5). As "Peko?" explained it to you.

Not to mention that with a single non-fanatic ethos opposing to everything you do, they could never join a majority faction to begin with.
WTH would a Xenophobe in a Fanatic Xenophile empire do in the Xenophile Faction, advocating less Xeno Rights?
And it is not like he could join the Spiritualsit Faction to drag them down. Because he is a Xenophobe, NOT a spiritualist (unless there are overlapping Factions. At least Pacifist and Xenophobe have some indicated overlap).
And that again is before you consider that Faction defines happiness in 1.5. Not the other way around anymore.

I wonder whether given the new focus on the interplay between pops, ethics, and factions, whether it will be possible to change empire ethics in 1.5

While it has not yet been confirmed in a Dev Diary, it was clearly indicated in the Ethics Rework one and Wiz's Twitter posts, down to screenshoots and discussions of the mechanic.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

While it has not yet been confirmed in a Dev Diary, it was clearly indicated in the Ethics Rework one and Wiz's Twitter posts, down to screenshoots and discussions of the mechanic.

Confirmed is confirmed and Wiz's twitter is just as official as a dev diary.

 

[The Founder]

Confirmed is confirmed and Wiz's twitter is just as official as a dev diary.

It is not confirmed unless it was at least in a Dev Diary. And nothing ina DD is actualy guaranteed to make it into the next patch.

 

[Ikael]

Having dozens of pops with dozens of different Ethos on a manually managed planet is a chore. Who is better put onto that power plant: That Thrifty species? Or that non-Thrifty but Individualist one?

Well, that sounds like an interesting decision to me, rather than a chore. I love my empire building, inner development and micro-managing. I am not that interested in map-painting, to be honest, but I guess that I am on the minority here.

If anything removing modifiers applied to pops because of your government would mean the traits mater more again.

In order for it to be worth it, they should heavily revamp traits as well, since now they are generic as hell, save from a few couple like "decadent". Ift would be a bummer if they downright remove ethoi-based modifiers without adding anything else regarding pop differenciation.

That being said, it is indeed heavily implied that factions not only will give happiness to their respective pops, but they will likely add another additional benefits (ej: Pops supporting the Trans-humanist Front generating extra science, for example). I dunno, it could be an interesing trade-off.

While it has not yet been confirmed in a Dev Diary, it was clearly indicated in the Ethics Rework one and Wiz's Twitter posts, down to screenshoots and discussions of the mechanic.

I've been scanning that link, and I couldn't find a confirmation of pop bonuses going the way of the dodo :S

 

[The Founder]

Well, that sounds like an interesting decision to me, rather than a chore. I love my empire building, inner development and micro-managing. I am not that interested in map-painting, to be honest, but I guess that I am on the minority here.

If there was at least a decent way to identify the ethos of a pop (like clothing or a special view) - maybe it might be interesting.
Otherwise you are just better off to leaving them out entirely.

In order for it to be worth it, they should heavily revamp traits as well, since now they are generic as hell, save from a few couple like "decadent". Ift would be a bummer if they downright remove ethoi-based modifiers without adding anything else regarding pop differenciation.

That being said, it is indeed heavily implied that factions not only will give happiness to their respective pops, but they will likely add another additional benefits (ej: Pops supporting the Trans-humanist Front generating extra science, for example). I dunno, it could be an interesing trade-off.

Again people are forgetting Traditions. It would be easy to move all the Ethos bonuses and limited techs to tradition unlocks. At wich point they would be free-er to be used (i.e. the Militarst Warhappiness* being moved somewhere into Supremacy).

*Asuming that thing is not completely scappred with the Ethos rework to begin with.

I've been scanning that link, and I couldn't find a confirmation of pop bonuses going the way of the dodo :S

That was never the point of this sentence and link.
The question was: "Will we be able to change Ethos ingame with the reworks." For wich the link and text was the proper answer.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

It is not confirmed unless it was at least in a Dev Diary. And nothing ina DD is actualy guaranteed to make it into the next patch.

False. If a developer from Paradox tweets about something then it's official, that doesn't mean it can't or won't be changed but insisting that it's not confirmed if it's not in a dev diary is quite silly.

 

[Avian Overlord]

They confirm that pop ethic bonuses are gone in the most recent stream.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

They confirm that pop ethic bonuses are gone in the most recent stream.

Yeah I saw that, 1.5 looks so interesting!