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Gerulus Sum

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Now that each pop will only have a single, non-fanatic ethic in 1.5, how will the ethics be rebalanced? I think that either the empire-wide modifiers for having a particular ethic should increase fairly significantly to compensate for the overall reduction in pop homogeneity. Essentially, the pop modifier of each ethic will, without any other changes, be worth 66% less than it is now.

I'm curious to see how Paradox plans on changes the ethics, especially in regard to ethics such as collectivist/authoritarian and xenophilia, as those will be difficult to rebalance without being extremely overhauled. Most of the ethics will probably have very different effects come 1.5, and I want to know a bit more about what we can expect.
 

BlackUmbrellas

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Now that each pop will only have a single, non-fanatic ethic in 1.5, how will the ethics be rebalanced? I think that either the empire-wide modifiers for having a particular ethic should increase fairly significantly to compensate for the overall reduction in pop homogeneity. Essentially, the pop modifier of each ethic will, without any other changes, be worth 66% less than it is now.

I'm curious to see how Paradox plans on changes the ethics, especially in regard to ethics such as collectivist/authoritarian and xenophilia, as those will be difficult to rebalance without being extremely overhauled. Most of the ethics will probably have very different effects come 1.5, and I want to know a bit more about what we can expect.
Quite possibly, a lot of POP-level ethics effects might be rerouted through factions, or rolled into the empire-level ones.
 
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Fourthspartan56

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Now that each pop will only have a single, non-fanatic ethic in 1.5, how will the ethics be rebalanced?
For the most part we have no idea.
I think that either the empire-wide modifiers for having a particular ethic should increase fairly significantly to compensate for the overall reduction in pop homogeneity
Perhaps.
Essentially, the pop modifier of each ethic will, without any other changes, be worth 66% less than it is now.
That is true.
I'm curious to see how Paradox plans on changes the ethics, especially in regard to ethics such as collectivist/authoritarian and xenophilia, as those will be difficult to rebalance without being extremely overhauled. Most of the ethics will probably have very different effects come 1.5, and I want to know a bit more about what we can expect.
We'll see.
 

General Retreat

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Also another thing to consider when it comes to homogeneity is the fact that you may be able to proceed without using all your trait points. It'll be interesting to see how playing exclusively as a fanatic whatever effects the faction system. Added social stability in exchange for reduced empire ethos bonuses.

I mean, if it's good for the Fallen Empires...
 
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The Founder

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Now that each pop will only have a single, non-fanatic ethic in 1.5, how will the ethics be rebalanced? I think that either the empire-wide modifiers for having a particular ethic should increase fairly significantly to compensate for the overall reduction in pop homogeneity. Essentially, the pop modifier of each ethic will, without any other changes, be worth 66% less than it is now.
For many ethics, the Empire effect was already rather strong/the pop effect negligible. Or the pop effect ended up being too strong/important to ever loose it or use it.

The Militarist bonus to wartime happiness is nice and all*. But the +10% Weapons damage actually stays with you.
Collectivst was one where you only wanted the basic version - for the Slavery Tollerancy and the Techs. Supressing factions only realy helps with extremely large malcontent slaves as the cost is capped.
From Spiritualist you wanted the Empire effect.
Xenophobe? Empire Effect on borders and buildings. Maybe Xeno Slavery, but not stable enough to use longterm.
Xenophile? Should be turned into more of a Empire/1.5 Faction effect anyway. Way to micro-managy as it is.
Pacfist? The Fantic Bonus/penalty went way overboard.

Collectivist, Materialist, Individualist, Pacifist are the only ones where the pop effect actually matered. And likely much more then the Empire effect. However they did still have buildings to carry those bonuses over to lategame when divergence had removed them (Stock Exchange, Research Center, Paradise Dome) or to counter divergence (Collectivist tech).
And with pacifist there was a decent case to actually wanting to get rid of it eventually if you want to go to war later, with all the Pacifist bonus to buildup.

*at least early game with not much divergence having taken place, it effectively negates wartime faction activity. But that is lost on Conquest or divergence.


What I think this rework will focus on most, is removing absue potential. Like building up under pacifism, only to then go to war and maintaining pacifism (and all the buildings it unlocked).
Since every ethos will have anti-divergence if you just "act according to it", that means the Individualist needed for reduced Polciy happiness can be removed. Wich will also remove the entire Individualist Meta.
It will also finally solve the issues that Ethoses that did not stack Ethics divergence or anti-policy happiness were not competitive.

Many of the stock factions were seriously flawed under the current ruleset:
UNS Individualism countered maximised use of it's Xenophilia.
Commonwealth was okay to prevent pops from diverging up to a certain size (Symbol of Purity + VC-Arena). But what about converting conquered pops? Or if you expanded too much?
Ix'Idars extreme faction supression only mattered for Salvery. But slavery can not be used for Science (Materialist), not even via Energy.
Chinorrs Individualism defeats the Materialism long run.
Jehetma had issues winning the game even via federation warfare. Not to mention that Happiness builds and slavery do not mix anyway and that Fan Pacifist will backfire even with Liberation wars.
 

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The more I look at it, the more it could be that Ethos stops providing any direct bonus. With maybe the exception of unlocking certain tech/buildings.
They carefully avoided showing us a single tooltip for the new Ethoses.

In turn what a Ethos provides right now - both pop and empire level - would propably fit perfectly into the Traditions (on a Empire level).
I could easily see the "Militarist War Happiness" effect being moved into Supremacy Tradition and onto the Empire level.
As well as unlocking the Symbol of Unity being moved to Purity Traditions (as a very early and effective Unity generator).

It could well be that with 1.5:
Ethos stops giving any bonus/penalty (except maybe Diplomacy).
And in turn is based primarily on the traditions you adopted and the decisions/policies you select. With the starting selection simply meaning how easy you can aquire the opposite Ethos.
 

Kayden_II

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Now that each pop will only have a single, non-fanatic ethic in 1.5
Without any Opinion ... Sure, that This is true ?

And in Puncto Ethic-Balance ...
Could We find Something Else for Xenophobic Empires (X-E(s)) as more Max-Rivalries, because ...
1. This is only an Issue in the Case, that There are still enough other Empires (Base-Amount of Empires + up to 3 additional Ones !) in the Late-Game ? ...
2. As tiny Empire in the Early-Game, It's not so a wise Decision to declare instantly - 6 other Empires as Rivals -> Enemies ?
 

Madzai

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Even a little sneak-peek into reworked Empire Ethics bonuses will be much appreciated. Because right now it very hard to imagine how new system is supposed to work. We work with POP on the whole species level - we only can change stuff like rights for the whole species. But the POPs of said species will have different ethics. And even more, as i understood, POPs from different species can join multi-species factions. And the factions is the second things we can at least somewhat control (after policies for entire species). So i imagine new Empire Ethics bonuses will be aimed at increasing their corresponding POPs Ethics approval (somewhat confirmed) and support for particular types of Factions. Otherwise i can't see how any of it will be manageable at all - especially "guiding" POPs into desirable factions.
 

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Without any Opinion ... Sure, that This is true ?
Yes. It is explicitly mentioned in the proper Dev Diary under Ethos Reworks. Indeed as the first change:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-54-ethics-rework.987286/
"Each pop in your empire will now only embrace a single, non-fanatic ethic. At the start of the game, your population will be made of up of only the ethics that you picked in species setup, but as your empire grows, its population will become more diverse in their views and wants."
 
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Ikael

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The developers have stated that every ethos will be heavily revamped, starting with the substitution of the collectivist - invidilualist axis for the egalitarian - autoritarian one, and continuing with the fact that there will be no more "fanatic" level of ethics regarding popullation and the introduction of factions.

That being said, considering the teases and revelations so far, I think that it is reasonable to assume the following things regarding the new ethos system:

- Since the game will revolve mostly about pops, it is logical to think that individual pop bonuses will still be on place.

- However, since pops theirselves won't be able to reach a fanatic status, it is logical to think that fanatic bonuses will be empire-wide and extremely powerful for game balance purposes. I think that we will only be able to access ethos-specific buildings, edicts and technologies as long as our empire is fanatical towards a certain ethos.

- Different ethos will surely interact with the brand new faction system. Other new mechanics, such as traditions, unity and consumer goods will probably play a role with it too.

Having this into account, I think that the system will be something along these lines:

Spiritualists: Less consumer good consumption, stronger tradition effects, less factions to play with
Materialists: Higher science output, more happiness from consumer goods, less powerful tradition effects

Militarists: Significantly stronger military, more influence, less consumer goods output
Pacifists: Weaker army, less influence, more trust, more consumer good output

Egalitarians: More benefits from happy factions
Authoritarians: Less benefits from factions, more unity output

Xenophobe: Larger borders, tolerance for xeno slavery, less diplomatic options
Xenophile: Happiness from diversity, less unity output, more diplomatic options, more factions
 
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The Founder

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So...
What ethics do your people have if you start without any ethos at all?
If you somehow manage to start as neutral, then so would your pops.
But as BlackUmbrellas said, you likely can not start as neutral. Of course that restriction might be removed once you can change your ethos ingame.
 

Ikael

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I thought I saw it on wiz's twitter sometime after the ethos rework dev diary but I can't find it now.

Well, it would be great if developers would clarify it. I mean, ethos are one of the main features of the core game. The removal of bonuses for each pop ethos would be a hell of a change... and one that I wouldn't like too much, to be honest. Species, pops and empires needs more differenciation and flavour, not less, me thinks.
 

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Well, it would be great if developers would clarify it. I mean, ethos are one of the main features of the core game. The removal of bonuses for each pop ethos would be a hell of a change... and one that I wouldn't like too much, to be honest. Species, pops and empires needs more differenciation and flavour, not less, me thinks.
Having dozens of pops with dozens of different Ethos on a manually managed planet is a chore.
Who is better put onto that power plant: That Thrifty species? Or that non-Thrifty but Individualist one?

If anything removing modifiers applied to pops because of your government would mean the traits mater more again.