1.41 BEST ENDGAME BATTLESHIPS (strategic resources + 5 repeatable techs):
421 battleship or 431 battleship (as head to head they are nearly equal).
The naming scheme follows the Larknok method: Shield-Plasma-Shield Capacitor, so 422 = 4 shield, 2 plasma, 2 shield Capacitors.
KA = Kinetic artillery; P = Plasma; SC = Shield Capacitor
The original hypothesis of this investigation was that heavier armoured variants would defeat heavier shielded battleships, based upon the original observation that the 120 variant defeated the then-meta 422. This was not supported by the results obtained, which suggest that heavier shielded battleships tend to defeat those with less shields. Summary of meta-battleship below, with LOADS of testing and theory following it.
The Demiare theory proposed that heavier armour and crystal forged plating, resulted in fewer losses to the the initial alpha damage, and therefore a numerical superiority for the armoured battleships would compound until they won. By observing the battles as they occurred, no noticeable difference in initial losses was initially observed without strategic resources and repeatable techs, between shielded and armoured battleship variants. When battleships closed into plasma cannon distance and the number of battleships dropped from 60-60 to around 30-30, the focus fire lessened. What this resulted in, was armoured battleships spreading their damage over the shielded battleships. These battleships using shields then used their shield capacitors to great effect, and they quickly tore down the armoured battleship's shield, and then focused down their hull.
For the assumed victories based on Larknok's hypothesis, I tested 4/16 assumed victories at random, and they are numbered from 1-16 below.
These included:
220 vs 321: Free win to 220 (9) F 3/3 321 won
120 vs 422: Free win to 120 (4) T 2/3 120 won
321 vs 432: Free win to 321 (14) T 2/3 321
422 vs 432: Free win to 422 (16) T 3/3 422 won
Therefore, some of the assumed victories may not be correct, proceed with caution.
Tests below were conducted with 60 battleships on each side, fought 5 times, with all tech researched, no admiral or fleet academy bonus. The winner of an engagement that was tested by either Demiare or myself is in bold and underlined. Assumptions tested at random only involved 3 trials.
Completed list of matchup testing (no repeatables or strategic resources). Free wins awarded by Larknok1.
5/5 = This ship type won all 5 times
120 vs 220: 5/5 220
120 vs 230: Free win to 230
120 vs 321: Free win to 120 (3)
120 vs 331: 5/5 331
120 vs 422: 2/3 120
120 vs 432: 3/5 432
130 vs 220: Free win to 130 (5)
130 vs 230: 3/5 230
130 vs 321: 5/5 321
130 vs 331: Free win to 331 (6)
130 vs 422: 5/5 422 (overwhelming)
130 vs 432: Free win to 432 (7)
220 vs 230: Free win to 230 (8)
220 vs 321: 3/3 321
220 vs 331: 4/5 331. 45/60 BBs lost when 220 won.
220 vs 422: Free win to 220 (10)
220 vs 432: 5/5 432
230 vs 321: 4/5 321. 55/60 BBs lost when 230 won
230 vs 331: Free win to 331 (11)
230 vs 422: 5/5 422
230 vs 432: Free win to 432 (12)
321 vs 331: Free win to 321 (13)
321 vs 422: 3/5 422
321 vs 432: Free win to 321 (14) 2/3 321
331 vs 422: Free win to 422 (15)
331 vs 432: 4/5 432. 51/60 BBs lost when 331 won
422 vs 432: Free win to 422 (16) 3/3 422
The overall trend of matchups that have been tested thus far is that the battleship with more shields tends to win. So 400>300>200>100, with the notable exceptions of 120 vs 422, and the 321 vs 422. All remaining assumptions that have not yet been tested should be considered in light of this trend.
Demiare's previous tests of the 432 against max armour, which can now be reached by the series 220.
432 vs 220: 5/5 432. Median no. of 432 losses = 33 => 45% survival rate
Let's try refitting the 220 to a 210 to use 3KA + 1P to see if it deals with the shields better.
432 vs 210: 5/5 432. Median no. of 432 losses = 17 => 71.67% survival rate.
The 220 is better against the 432 than the 210, despite the earlier results collected by Damiare suggesting that using 3KA may better counter the 432 when strategic resources weren't used.
As repeatable technology is researched and strategic resources acquired, armour is easier and easier to come across. No longer will you require 5 neutronium armour to reach 90% armour. The reason that armour no longer appears to be the meta-battleship at 1 repeatable tech and resources, is that the difference between heavy shield and heavy armour is lower. Without any strategic resources or repeated techs, the armoured variant has 160 armour (90%) while the 400 series has only 80 (55%). This changes to 153 (90%) and 96 (66%) at strategic resources + 1 tier repeatable.
I won't test the series 200 any further, as after you've researched a few repeatable techs of the armour, you can achieve 90% armour with the series 300.
321 vs 432: 3/5 321. Median no. of 321 losses (when they won) = 49 => 18.33% survival rate. Whereas when the 432 won, median no. of 432 losses = 36 => 40% survival rate. So, random chance may be at work here, with the 321 winning if they get good rolls on their kinetic artillery.
322 vs 432: 5/5 432. Median no. of 432 losses = 36 => 40% survival rate
As the 321 appears to be superior, the 320 and 322 designs will not continue.
321 vs 422: 4/5 321. Median no. of 321 losses (when they won) = 36.5 => 39.17% survival rate.
422 vs 432: 5/5 422. Median no. of 422 losses = 46 (also the mean) => 23.33% survival rate
So far, the 321 is winning. Now, one final assumption will be tested. Whether it is in fact better to use 2SC if you have 4 shields, or 1SC and 1 crystal.
321 vs 431: 4/5 431. Median no. 431 losses (when they won) = 37 => 38.33% survival rate
321 vs 421: 4/5 421. Median no. of 421 losses (when they won) = 40 => 33.33% survival rate
So using 2SC with 4 shields may not actually be the best. 1SC + 1 crystal might be superior (though I admit that chance can play into how the 321 initially beat the 432). Therefore the 421 and 431 (shielded) appear to be better than the 321 (armoured).
421 vs 431: 3/5 431, though you may as well flip a coin. Median no. of 431 losses (when they won) = 52 => 13.33% survival rate. Median no. of 421 losses (when they won) = 35.5 => 40.83% survival rate. So while the 431 might edge out in most fights, when the 421 wins, it wins big. So really... either ship is great, it's too close to call. While the 400 series initially lost to the heavier armoured 300, by replacing the 2SC with 1SC and 1 plate, the 400 series edged out ahead.
Conclusion: Both the 421 and the 431 are the best ENDGAME battleships. If you are not using repeatable technology or strategic resources, use the 422.
Future Tests: Confirm the performance of the builds recommended against AI empires, as well as Fallen Empires. Then compare against the performance of cruisers, to determine if there is a meta ship type.
Disclaimer: This thread neither endorses or opposes the view that battleships are the best ship type for defeating other battleships. Cruisers will be tested in future against battleships.
421 battleship or 431 battleship (as head to head they are nearly equal).
The naming scheme follows the Larknok method: Shield-Plasma-Shield Capacitor, so 422 = 4 shield, 2 plasma, 2 shield Capacitors.
KA = Kinetic artillery; P = Plasma; SC = Shield Capacitor
So, I know a number of people have read "Finding the absolute best battleship": https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ng-the-absolute-best-battleship.989784/page-3
And the more recent: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...p-crystal-forge-edition.997787/#post-22388635
Given Larknok's disappearance before completing the rest of the tests on battleship matchups, I've completed it in his absence. The current research question is what the most effective battleship design is against other battleships. Credit goes to both Larknok1 for his original thesis about battleships, and Demiare for all his hard work on testing all the matchups and ideas about armour usage.
And the more recent: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...p-crystal-forge-edition.997787/#post-22388635
Given Larknok's disappearance before completing the rest of the tests on battleship matchups, I've completed it in his absence. The current research question is what the most effective battleship design is against other battleships. Credit goes to both Larknok1 for his original thesis about battleships, and Demiare for all his hard work on testing all the matchups and ideas about armour usage.
Hypotheses and Theory
The original hypothesis of this investigation was that heavier armoured variants would defeat heavier shielded battleships, based upon the original observation that the 120 variant defeated the then-meta 422. This was not supported by the results obtained, which suggest that heavier shielded battleships tend to defeat those with less shields. Summary of meta-battleship below, with LOADS of testing and theory following it.
The Demiare theory proposed that heavier armour and crystal forged plating, resulted in fewer losses to the the initial alpha damage, and therefore a numerical superiority for the armoured battleships would compound until they won. By observing the battles as they occurred, no noticeable difference in initial losses was initially observed without strategic resources and repeatable techs, between shielded and armoured battleship variants. When battleships closed into plasma cannon distance and the number of battleships dropped from 60-60 to around 30-30, the focus fire lessened. What this resulted in, was armoured battleships spreading their damage over the shielded battleships. These battleships using shields then used their shield capacitors to great effect, and they quickly tore down the armoured battleship's shield, and then focused down their hull.
For the assumed victories based on Larknok's hypothesis, I tested 4/16 assumed victories at random, and they are numbered from 1-16 below.
These included:
220 vs 321: Free win to 220 (9) F 3/3 321 won
120 vs 422: Free win to 120 (4) T 2/3 120 won
321 vs 432: Free win to 321 (14) T 2/3 321
422 vs 432: Free win to 422 (16) T 3/3 422 won
Therefore, some of the assumed victories may not be correct, proceed with caution.
Tests below were conducted with 60 battleships on each side, fought 5 times, with all tech researched, no admiral or fleet academy bonus. The winner of an engagement that was tested by either Demiare or myself is in bold and underlined. Assumptions tested at random only involved 3 trials.
Completed list of matchup testing (no repeatables or strategic resources). Free wins awarded by Larknok1.
5/5 = This ship type won all 5 times
120 vs 130: Free win to 130120 vs 220: 5/5 220
120 vs 230: Free win to 230
120 vs 321: Free win to 120 (3)
120 vs 331: 5/5 331
120 vs 422: 2/3 120
120 vs 432: 3/5 432
130 vs 220: Free win to 130 (5)
130 vs 230: 3/5 230
130 vs 321: 5/5 321
130 vs 331: Free win to 331 (6)
130 vs 422: 5/5 422 (overwhelming)
130 vs 432: Free win to 432 (7)
220 vs 230: Free win to 230 (8)
220 vs 321: 3/3 321
220 vs 331: 4/5 331. 45/60 BBs lost when 220 won.
220 vs 422: Free win to 220 (10)
220 vs 432: 5/5 432
230 vs 321: 4/5 321. 55/60 BBs lost when 230 won
230 vs 331: Free win to 331 (11)
230 vs 422: 5/5 422
230 vs 432: Free win to 432 (12)
321 vs 331: Free win to 321 (13)
321 vs 422: 3/5 422
321 vs 432: Free win to 321 (14) 2/3 321
331 vs 422: Free win to 422 (15)
331 vs 432: 4/5 432. 51/60 BBs lost when 331 won
422 vs 432: Free win to 422 (16) 3/3 422
The overall trend of matchups that have been tested thus far is that the battleship with more shields tends to win. So 400>300>200>100, with the notable exceptions of 120 vs 422, and the 321 vs 422. All remaining assumptions that have not yet been tested should be considered in light of this trend.
How repeatable tech and strategic resource change the game
By adding in 1 of each repeated tech and all the strategic resources (excluding living metal) I redid
Demiare's previous tests of the 432 against max armour, which can now be reached by the series 220.
432 vs 220: 5/5 432. Median no. of 432 losses = 33 => 45% survival rate
Let's try refitting the 220 to a 210 to use 3KA + 1P to see if it deals with the shields better.
432 vs 210: 5/5 432. Median no. of 432 losses = 17 => 71.67% survival rate.
The 220 is better against the 432 than the 210, despite the earlier results collected by Damiare suggesting that using 3KA may better counter the 432 when strategic resources weren't used.
As repeatable technology is researched and strategic resources acquired, armour is easier and easier to come across. No longer will you require 5 neutronium armour to reach 90% armour. The reason that armour no longer appears to be the meta-battleship at 1 repeatable tech and resources, is that the difference between heavy shield and heavy armour is lower. Without any strategic resources or repeated techs, the armoured variant has 160 armour (90%) while the 400 series has only 80 (55%). This changes to 153 (90%) and 96 (66%) at strategic resources + 1 tier repeatable.
I won't test the series 200 any further, as after you've researched a few repeatable techs of the armour, you can achieve 90% armour with the series 300.
REPEATABLE 5: 300 VS 400 (90% armour vs Heavy Shield)
320 vs 432: 5/5 432. Median no. of 432 losses = 36 => 40% survival rate.
321 vs 432: 3/5 321. Median no. of 321 losses (when they won) = 49 => 18.33% survival rate. Whereas when the 432 won, median no. of 432 losses = 36 => 40% survival rate. So, random chance may be at work here, with the 321 winning if they get good rolls on their kinetic artillery.
322 vs 432: 5/5 432. Median no. of 432 losses = 36 => 40% survival rate
As the 321 appears to be superior, the 320 and 322 designs will not continue.
321 vs 422: 4/5 321. Median no. of 321 losses (when they won) = 36.5 => 39.17% survival rate.
422 vs 432: 5/5 422. Median no. of 422 losses = 46 (also the mean) => 23.33% survival rate
So far, the 321 is winning. Now, one final assumption will be tested. Whether it is in fact better to use 2SC if you have 4 shields, or 1SC and 1 crystal.
321 vs 431: 4/5 431. Median no. 431 losses (when they won) = 37 => 38.33% survival rate
321 vs 421: 4/5 421. Median no. of 421 losses (when they won) = 40 => 33.33% survival rate
So using 2SC with 4 shields may not actually be the best. 1SC + 1 crystal might be superior (though I admit that chance can play into how the 321 initially beat the 432). Therefore the 421 and 431 (shielded) appear to be better than the 321 (armoured).
Final Test (421 vs 431)
421 vs 431: 3/5 431, though you may as well flip a coin. Median no. of 431 losses (when they won) = 52 => 13.33% survival rate. Median no. of 421 losses (when they won) = 35.5 => 40.83% survival rate. So while the 431 might edge out in most fights, when the 421 wins, it wins big. So really... either ship is great, it's too close to call. While the 400 series initially lost to the heavier armoured 300, by replacing the 2SC with 1SC and 1 plate, the 400 series edged out ahead.
Conclusion: Both the 421 and the 431 are the best ENDGAME battleships. If you are not using repeatable technology or strategic resources, use the 422.
Future Tests: Confirm the performance of the builds recommended against AI empires, as well as Fallen Empires. Then compare against the performance of cruisers, to determine if there is a meta ship type.
Disclaimer: This thread neither endorses or opposes the view that battleships are the best ship type for defeating other battleships. Cruisers will be tested in future against battleships.
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