1.4 - Westernisation Changed
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The problem is, it is hard to fix - ops, you misclicked? Points gone. At most, they could have put a "no ongoing MP investment" limit to Westernization, so you should have had to start with your MPs in the pool and not stashed under the bed.
Uh did you even read this thread? Like at all? Good luck raising stability with no admin points or fighting off rebels with no general.
Yes, I read it. So long as you bank a (depending on tech group) relatively trivial amount of monarch points and have a decent ruler (or regency council), you can have a decent reserve for restoring stability. If you stockpile a full stock of MPs (assuming your tech group doesn't have any MP gain penalties (so, unless you're Sub-Saharan, Indian, or Chinese) and have a ruler/regency that isn't pants-on-head retarded), MPs shouldn't even be an issue, so long as you aren't waging war or building lots of stuff. Or you could just stomp rebels without a general. Group everything into one or two stacks and most rebel stacks will be too small for it to matter if they have a general or not.
So unless you are not any of the countries that actually need to westernize you will be fine?
Well, New World definitely needs to Westernize, no? And Muslim and Ottoman aren't going to stack up well in the late game against the vastly superior Western units. And Indian and Chinese and Nomad (if you somehow wind up with should be able to manage with the Nomad tech group and a normal government) should be able to do it alright with an above-average ruler and still keep a reserve to deal with problems. Sub-Saharan is SOL without a god-king, though.
Things look a lot better after the clarification. I like how it removes the worst parts of the MP "banking" incentive---there's still some reason to save MPs beforehand, but it's not nearly as ridiculous as the refund tactic.
Also, the risk structure is a lot more interesting now. Here's some math about stockpiling MPs before Westernization.
A minimal-length Westernization will necessarily drain 10 MP of each type every month, and cost 667 MP of each type, modified by tech group. Since you can store 999 MP of each type, also modified by tech group, this means that if the cap changes at the end instead of the beginning, you can always store enough MP for the entire Westernization if you so choose. In fact, you could theoretically store enough for just under 1.5 Westernizations. Even if the cap changes at the beginning, 999 MP not modified by tech group is still likely enough as I shall show later. So Westernization is not much more dangerous than buying a (full price) tech of all three types at the same time. You just pay over time, instead of up-front. In other words, if you want to play it safe, you can save up 667 MP of each type, modified by tech group, and the Westernization will take up that initial stockpile, no more. Any MPs you earn during Westernization can then be spent worry-free.
Now, if you want to start Westernization earlier, so that you also finish earlier, you can take advantage of the fact that you don't need to have all the MPs up front. Note that the Westernization still takes the same, minimal, time---you just start earlier so you can end earlier. Near the opposite end of risk is assuming you will have no MP expenses or bonuses during Westernization and you run out of MPs just as Westernization finishes. If you generate X MPs towards Westernization each month, your initial stockpile is going to have to contribute exactly 30 - X MPs for a minimal-length Westernization. So each Westernization MP that you generate per month reduces the required initial stockpile by 2000 / 30 = 66.7 MPs (modified by tech group). Put another way, each point of MP of each type below 10 requires at least a stockpile of 66.7 MPs (modified by tech group) for a minimal-length Westernization.
In tabular form, MP generation of each type versus minimal initial stockpile (modified by tech group) of that type:
0: 667
1: 600
2: 534
3: 467
4: 400
5: 334
6: 267
7: 200
8: 134
9: 67
10 or more: 0
So, for example, if you're Chinese tech (+60% tech group modifier) and you generate 7 ADM per month, you'll want to stockpile at least 200 * 160% = 320 ADM before starting Westernization plus enough to cover any comets, etc.; the remaining 747 will be generated during the Westernization itself.
Not necessarily. The old Westernization stab hit choices cost you ~300 ADM each and generally set you back a lot more than 4 months. 4 months (if literal) is only 120 MP---that's less than some of the harsher events that are out there. But we'll have to see when it actually comes out.
Also, the risk structure is a lot more interesting now. Here's some math about stockpiling MPs before Westernization.
A minimal-length Westernization will necessarily drain 10 MP of each type every month, and cost 667 MP of each type, modified by tech group. Since you can store 999 MP of each type, also modified by tech group, this means that if the cap changes at the end instead of the beginning, you can always store enough MP for the entire Westernization if you so choose. In fact, you could theoretically store enough for just under 1.5 Westernizations. Even if the cap changes at the beginning, 999 MP not modified by tech group is still likely enough as I shall show later. So Westernization is not much more dangerous than buying a (full price) tech of all three types at the same time. You just pay over time, instead of up-front. In other words, if you want to play it safe, you can save up 667 MP of each type, modified by tech group, and the Westernization will take up that initial stockpile, no more. Any MPs you earn during Westernization can then be spent worry-free.
Now, if you want to start Westernization earlier, so that you also finish earlier, you can take advantage of the fact that you don't need to have all the MPs up front. Note that the Westernization still takes the same, minimal, time---you just start earlier so you can end earlier. Near the opposite end of risk is assuming you will have no MP expenses or bonuses during Westernization and you run out of MPs just as Westernization finishes. If you generate X MPs towards Westernization each month, your initial stockpile is going to have to contribute exactly 30 - X MPs for a minimal-length Westernization. So each Westernization MP that you generate per month reduces the required initial stockpile by 2000 / 30 = 66.7 MPs (modified by tech group). Put another way, each point of MP of each type below 10 requires at least a stockpile of 66.7 MPs (modified by tech group) for a minimal-length Westernization.
In tabular form, MP generation of each type versus minimal initial stockpile (modified by tech group) of that type:
0: 667
1: 600
2: 534
3: 467
4: 400
5: 334
6: 267
7: 200
8: 134
9: 67
10 or more: 0
So, for example, if you're Chinese tech (+60% tech group modifier) and you generate 7 ADM per month, you'll want to stockpile at least 200 * 160% = 320 ADM before starting Westernization plus enough to cover any comets, etc.; the remaining 747 will be generated during the Westernization itself.
Not necessarily. The old Westernization stab hit choices cost you ~300 ADM each and generally set you back a lot more than 4 months. 4 months (if literal) is only 120 MP---that's less than some of the harsher events that are out there. But we'll have to see when it actually comes out.
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Oops i misklicked stability or war exhaustion removal. Strangely, no refund. Besides how many times can the person actually misclic?
Or more interestingly, Opps, i misclicked declare war instead of close window. Refund?
Let's remove it from units as well, then. Or, why not, from alliances? Passing rights? Royal marriages?
Buildings can be cancelled, so they are supposed to be possible to roll back. Stability can't, War Exhaustion can't, Declare War can't. Don't strawman me, please.
One could also argue that the odd shapes of provinces and the fact that you may order multiple units at a time make misclicks more likely. Anyhow it's kind of moot now.
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With these changes, how will I choose between an Aztec and a Castille game next? >: (
What I always disliked about westernization was that it didn't really feel realistic. First of all the "have to be 8 techs behind"-BS seems just like an easy fix for the mechanics so Poland can't westernize on day one. Which countries does a westernization? The backwards countries who have crappy technology and does not advance? No! The ones with the BEST tech are the ones who westernize. And what happens during westernization? Does the tech get worse? No! Influences come into the country causing an incredible INCREASE in technology. (this is while westernizing) So much in fact that it forces a culture change in the people, which spurs revolts.
So my suggestions are first of all to change the requirements for westernization to having a certain tech level. For instance admin tech level 18 or 20. As well as neighbor a westernized country. Then westernization should be done in steps. You introduce some western influences, immediately reducing a small bit of your tech disadvantage in return for a 5 year revolt risk increase. (you hit the westernization button, and you lose some stability, and get a modifier that gives revolt risk and increased stability costs for 5 years) This could cause you to remove perhaps 10% of the tech disadvantage, of which chinese tech has 40%. After the 5 year period one could hit the westernization button again.
The 5 years per 10% westernizationing could be changed to something else like 10 years if one wants it to take longer to westernize. The main point in what I mean is that as it is now westernization is a worm hole from whatever tech you are till best tech. I think westernization should be only possible for those who already have good tech, being rewarded for intentionally lagging behind is completely retarded. Going from sub-saharan to western should take longer than going from Eastern to Western. Westernization should also give better tech gradually through the westernization process, and the loss in the process should be revolts over a long period, possibly also reduction in manpower. (as people get less willing to fight in the army for the country since the country isn't what it used to)
So my suggestions are first of all to change the requirements for westernization to having a certain tech level. For instance admin tech level 18 or 20. As well as neighbor a westernized country. Then westernization should be done in steps. You introduce some western influences, immediately reducing a small bit of your tech disadvantage in return for a 5 year revolt risk increase. (you hit the westernization button, and you lose some stability, and get a modifier that gives revolt risk and increased stability costs for 5 years) This could cause you to remove perhaps 10% of the tech disadvantage, of which chinese tech has 40%. After the 5 year period one could hit the westernization button again.
The 5 years per 10% westernizationing could be changed to something else like 10 years if one wants it to take longer to westernize. The main point in what I mean is that as it is now westernization is a worm hole from whatever tech you are till best tech. I think westernization should be only possible for those who already have good tech, being rewarded for intentionally lagging behind is completely retarded. Going from sub-saharan to western should take longer than going from Eastern to Western. Westernization should also give better tech gradually through the westernization process, and the loss in the process should be revolts over a long period, possibly also reduction in manpower. (as people get less willing to fight in the army for the country since the country isn't what it used to)
Uh, wait, you want ADM 18-20 to be a prerequisite of westernizing? How do you expect anyone who's not Eastern or Ottoman to do that? An American country can't even get to that point before 1821, I think.
That is a misconception. Americans used Western European tactics. They where trained by Prussian military trainers, there weapons supplied by France, and Britain had most of the native tribes on there side. Concept of what we consider gorilla warfare comes from the peninsular war, where British, protegees, and spanish used to great effect against napoleon, so even in the case of gurrilia warfare britian was ahead of the usa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsular_War#Emergence_of_the_guerrilla
http://historymyths.wordpress.com/2...ritish-who-fought-standing-in-straight-lines/
Americans won the war not because of cleaver tactics, but because of huge support from France, and limited man power on the Brits side. Britian simply did not have the manpower to fight a war of on the other side of the world while dealing with other issues around the world. Luckily for the British they have always had a good streak of knowing when the war is lost before they lost to much in it, unlike the spanish that fought tooth and nail for all there claims and paid the price for it.
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well, when did the countries "westernize"in real life? could make it 15-16 to make it easier, but for instance Japan did not westernize until 1850-ish. Remember that countries lagging behind on tech gets neighbor bonus, as well as no "ahead of time"-modifier.
Neighboring bonus is only for same tech group. (At least a Japanese Core next to Spanish Core does not result in a tech bonus, from my attempts to acquire said tech bonus)
Okay, so we remove the ability of everyone except Ottoman and Eastern tech to westernize. What then, for all the other countries? Should we only play those until the Europeans show up, then restart, because that's historical?
is it really that hard to keep up somewhat in tech? Sure one will lag behind, but not that much. Chinese and Indian tech should still be able to westernize if you have a adm tech 15 requirement. Sub saharan and native american will have some problems though. Sure, that suggestion may not be the best, but I'm just trying to figure out a solution that rewards getting higher tech. It could be based on time instead. Could be forced to being after 1600 for instance. However, I usually prefer obstacles that a skilled player may overcome.
How about all tech groups get the same amount of monarch points, and techs cost the same no matter where you are? (all are same tech group-like) However, the different tech groups have different "trees" just like they have different units. (workshops unlocked on lvl 8 or 12 instead of 4) To westernize the countries have to have admin tech 16, which is not hard to get since you get normal tech costs and no reduction to monarch point gain. (one could also have different requirement for the different tech groups) You have to complete a westernization cycle for every stage you wish to advance through the tech groups: New world/sub-saharan/nomad -> Chinese -> Indian/muslim -> Eastern/Ottoman -> Western. So Aztecs for instance must complete 4 stages = 20 years of increased revolt risk, and 4 times the stability loss one wants on a stage. (this is a bit similar to how it worked in EU3 if I recall correctly)