1.4 Another Round of Disappointment

[RickN]

Most of the comments in this (and other similar threads) overlook one very basic point: THERE IS NO AI. "Artificial Intelligence" means a computer that makes its own decisions. Some very high-end firms are experimenting with this, but nobody's successfully created one yet. What this game has is some carefully written (and very extensive) conditional loops and scripts. If you present the game with a set of parameters (date, alliance, whatever) it recognizes, it will "fire" that decision. If you present it with something that the programmers either didn't anticipate or overlooked, then you get "wacky" or nonsensical decisions. If you don't like the way the "AI" acts, mod the scripts the game engine is using for its decisions.

So when PI says they're making changes to the AI, you're accusing them of lying to us since this "AI" thing doesn't exist.

I, on the other hand, think most of us understand what PI and other posters means when they talk about the game's "AI".

And I don't want to program the AI since I A)can only access the portions in the LUA files and B)paid $40 for PI to do it. Just because PI overlooked the Pacific War doesn't mean I want to program one.

 

[unmerged(148761)]

So when PI says they're making changes to the AI, you're accusing them of lying to us since this "AI" thing doesn't exist.

I, on the other hand, think most of us understand what PI and other posters means when they talk about the game's "AI".

And I don't want to program the AI since I A)can only access the portions in the LUA files and B)paid $40 for PI to do it. Just because PI overlooked the Pacific War doesn't mean I want to program one.

What he means is that there is no strategic level AI. Obviously there is a military AI, which works to some extent or another. But most high-level strategic decisions, like whether a computer nation joins a faction or whether it will make a decision or start a war are made either randomly or automatically if a certain parameters are met. For example, if you manually disband Germany's entire army and load as another country it will still start the war with Poland-- relative military power of the two nations is not considered.

You could reasonably say that this scenario would never happen without player interferance. But other examples happen in the game all the time. For instance Japan could theoretically start the war with China whenever it wants, but it makes the decisison without reinforcing the China border or making sure its troops are in position. Also, Switzerland will join the Allies if it is in the right corner of the triangle, even if France has fallen and it is completely surrounded by Axis Italy and Germany and neutral Vichy-- clearly committing national scuicide. There is no AI that sits back and asks "is it a good idea for me to make this decision?"

Also, I don't think anyone asked you to program a new AI or anything along those lines.

 

[Garak]

Paradox - do you care how disappointed we are???

Please don't lump all of us into your negative "we".

8$ = a week of basic wage where I live ...

That to say 8$ or 6 euros , even if laughtable in USA or in Europe, is still money... if you get what I mean.

Good Lord, where do you live?? I make almost that an hour.

 

[gunter_viezenz]

http://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Iron-3..._1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1272330005&sr=8-1

Incase anyone's friend in the states in interested. Only 8 dollars.

 

[unmerged(148761)]

Please don't lump all of us into your negative "we".

"We" only implies that he is part of a group of 2 or more people-- it does not imply that all people are part of that group.

Good Lord, where do you live?? I make almost that an hour.

Congratulations for making more money than people in poorer countries.

 

[Garak]

"We" only implies that he is part of a group of 2 or more people-- it does not imply that all people are part of that group.

I think it's pretty obvious what I meant. You're just being difficult.

"ongratulations for making more money than people in poorer countries.

Yeah, wow, I make minimum wage. I was asking out of shock. I'm not exactly going to feel guilty for making what amounts to nothing where I live.

 

[unmerged(185688)]

I'm quoting myself here, just to bring up the subject again.

Can anyone give independent confirmation of this? Ie. Build 10 CV's or BB's while taking note of how much MP is used from your pool, then cancel those builds and see if any of that MP is returned. (Btw, checksum is DXEP) If possible, make a save and check the MP on those same builds.

Something else I noticed is that El Salvador has the Naval Bomber technology, surely that's not WAD, right?

Again, I quote myself

I re-checked after a fresh install and the problem remains, I get no MP back from any ships if I build then cancel them, but, I do get MP back if they finish and I disband them.

Another odd tidbit, it seems Saudi Arabia has the Naval Bomber tech as well!?

 

[unmerged(145825)]

8$ = a week of basic wage where I live ...

That to say 8$ or 6 euros , even if laughtable in USA or in Europe, is still money... if you get what I mean.

Good Lord, where do you live?? I make almost that an hour.

Good Lord, where do you live?? Oh... U.S.A :rofl:

Yeah, wow, I make minimum wage. I was asking out of shock. I'm not exactly going to feel guilty for making what amounts to nothing where I live.

hehe yeah, dont be (feeling guilty)!

Im surprised someone earning $8 a week ($416 a year - no holidays) can even afford a decent computer to run HOI3.

 

[Slan]

Most of the comments in this (and other similar threads) overlook one very basic point: THERE IS NO AI. "Artificial Intelligence" means a computer that makes its own decisions. Some very high-end firms are experimenting with this, but nobody's successfully created one yet. What this game has is some carefully written (and very extensive) conditional loops and scripts. If you present the game with a set of parameters (date, alliance, whatever) it recognizes, it will "fire" that decision. If you present it with something that the programmers either didn't anticipate or overlooked, then you get "wacky" or nonsensical decisions. If you don't like the way the "AI" acts, mod the scripts the game engine is using for its decisions.

I'm sorry, but I have to react to this. Do you even know what Artificial Intelligence means?... It is an agent that observes its sorroundings (the current game state), and chooses an action it can take based on its observations. No more, no less. The game does that.
What you are talking about (I think) is artificial learning. Yes, the game does not do that. But not only very high-end firms are experimenting with it. I could make learning programs. The concept is not that hard, but it takes a lot of resources to use it to something worthwhile. A group of computer scientists made a flying simulator, that was not coded how to fly, but learnt from three trained pilots, through 30-30 standard flights. After that, it could fly a bit better, then the three pilots. Just for your information.

 

[Cybvep]

(...)A group of computer scientists made a flying simulator, that was not coded how to fly, but learnt from three trained pilots, through 30-30 standard flights. After that, it could fly a bit better, then the three pilots. Just for your information.(...)

Imagine HOI3's Vanilla AI learning to IC-whore properly and invade with 200 PARAs brigades or pure-CAVs armies. It would learn those strategies from the players and eventually become better at performing them:rofl:

 

[Slan]

Imagine HOI3's Vanilla AI learning to IC-whore properly and invade with 200 PARAs brigades or pure-CAVs armies. It would learn those strategies from the players and eventually become better at performing them:rofl:

Well, this is a game, so it really does not need to be smarter then us But if someone wanted to, and had the financial background, a learning AI could be made. In single player, it would be rather pointless, though, as it would need thousands of playthroughs to actually learn something (In an MMO strategy it could make more sense!)

 

[unmerged(197928)]

Disappointment

Okay- I may be small and furry but I did wait patiently outside the game store with my money between my paws in excited expectation of a game which was lauded by Paradox to be the ultimate of their Hearts of Iron games. It took me 5 hours to drag the game-box back to my tree and I think , truly that I maybe should not have bothered.
Who- in their right minds would choose such awful map- colouring ?
Who would make the screens so brown and impersonal to players ?
Who would leave huge glitches in gameplay ?
Who would use the open-ended alliance system which makes a mockery of historical possibility ?
Who would stray so far from a successful formula in the past ? Apparently Paradox.
I was expecting enhanced graphics, more provinces, a bit more detail, more units, but in essence the old game- simply bigger in scale. In fact there would have been a lot of happy bunnies (and squirrels) with that alone. I fully understand the desire for innovation- but not at such cost. Please Paradox - stick to quality over drastic innovation- or introduce the innovation slowly so that all small furry animals can be happy and not sad. " A large nut can only be chewed by a large squirrel in stages- otherwise you get indigestion" !

 

[unmerged(197928)]

Sorry for posting two times- my computer is going "nutty" . You try typing on a keyboard with claws. :rofl:

 

[Jonas]

I like the colours. They did not use neon-coloured maps back in the day and so I prefer not to do so today either.

I like the open-ended alliance system. There are countless other WWII games out there that will box you in and force you to do exactly the same things that were done historically. Been there, done that, bored to death. Accept that there is one single game that approaches WWII with a more open ended system. If this is too much for you, if all games have to be the same, there are mods which will force outcomes more in line with historical developments.

Straying from the successful forumla? Where? Who? How? Are you saying Paradox changed from what they used to be or what they used to do? You would be wrong.

All of the things you expected from HoI III are things I enjoy when I play it.

 

[gunter_viezenz]

I was expecting enhanced graphics, more provinces, a bit more detail, more units

I was dissapionted with all the bugs and lack of overall finish when the game first came out, but at least they bothered trying to correct as much of that as was possible.

But brining me to what I have quoted.

1. Does HOI3 have better graphics than HOI2?

compared with

2. Are there more provinces in HOI3 than in HOI2? I believe that is a clear yes.

3. Does HOI3 have more detail than HOI2?
I cant fully answer this one perhaps someone else can, but at least in terms of the diplomacy you do have more detail in that sense. That and you can build divisions how you want them to be built not just the generic model as in HOI2. I do believe that is more detail than HOI2. They also provide you templates with how the major nations actually organized their divisions [or tried to organize them]. The HQ command adds to totally new aspect of command, that and now you have your army organized into Corps, Armies, Army Groups, Theatures. It adds a whole new depth into the game which was not there previously.

4. Does HOI3 have more units than HOI2?
HOI3 gives you the option to build what type of tank you want [light, medium, heavy, superheavy], unlike in HOI2 where you just upgrade your original light tank divisions into medium than heavy tanks [actually this is a point for #3 as well]. But other than that they did not really add any new units that were not previously in the 2nd installment. In this respect they are about equal, but in the other 3 HOI3 completes the criteria you had for your expectations.


~ It appears that most if not all your expectations were met (3/4). You fall into the same category that I fall into in terms of disappointment with the game. Its not that you didnt get what you were expecting, it is just at least in my opinion, the game was NOT FINISHED upon release. The game still needed work on many issues.

 

[Tormodius]

I like the colours. They did not use neon-coloured maps back in the day and so I prefer not to do so today either.

I like the open-ended alliance system. There are countless other WWII games out there that will box you in and force you to do exactly the same things that were done historically. Been there, done that, bored to death. Accept that there is one single game that approaches WWII with a more open ended system. If this is too much for you, if all games have to be the same, there are mods which will force outcomes more in line with historical developments.

Straying from the successful forumla? Where? Who? How? Are you saying Paradox changed from what they used to be or what they used to do? You would be wrong.

All of the things you expected from HoI III are things I enjoy when I play it.

I agree with the open ended philosophy and so does many others. However there are issues with the vanilla game (even 1.4) that is a bit too much to swallow. The totally unrealistic things that sometimes happens might knock people off. Therefore its good that this game is so highly moddable, and its exactly because of this there are mods like Historical Plausability Project http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=463723
which removes stupid AI stuff and makes me enjoy the game again.

 

[Dan77]

Three days? Did you sleep? It took me eight days to finish it, and I wasn't working, or doing much of anything else. By the end I had nearly 80 hours put into it. All the DLC, all the side missions, quests, and read all the lore.

Three days? Thats no sleep for nearly 80 hours, so you didn't do everything . . .

no i didn't, probably took me more than 3 days.

 

[vinnie1912]

Your kind and the +1 bandwagon jumpers are the biggest waste of space on this board.

Riddle me this, do you really think flaming someone who doesn't share your view of the game will actually accomplish anything but showing everyone what a douche you are and most likely destroy the thread?

If you don't have anything useful to say then keep your mouth shut.

Never stop posting.

The biggest waste of space on these boards are the 'daddy, my toy no worky' morons that post threads like this on a daily basis. Anyone who has been waiting 6 months for a video game to be fixed to the point that they rage about it when a patch doesn't fit their definition of playability deserved to be flamed.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Sorry for posting two times- my computer is going "nutty" . You try typing on a keyboard with claws. :rofl:

You can delete a post by using the 'edit' button.

 

[6354201]

I'm beginning to wonder if this game will ever be playable. Paradox is NOT michelangelo painting the sistine chapel so Hoi3 should not take four years to finish like it took to finish that church. The patches are making the game worse to the point that I feel that repairing this title may be beyond their programming capabilities. The hearts of Iron series to me is the Windows 98 of the gaming industry and I will be willing to bet that "Semper Fi" will be the Windows 98se of the gaming industry.

Paradox - do you care how disappointed we are???

I too am very disappointed with HoI3. I also think Semper Fi shows promise and I recognize that no game company is perfect. Also, the HoI series is definitely not Windows 98, HoI2 is fantastic.

If you do care, Semper Fi should be offered for free to all current owners of HO3 out of common decency.

Do you really believe this? I mean honestly, come on. We are talking about a company that exists to make money, not give away their product because some people (myself included) were disappointed with one of their previous purchases.

That being said, a gesture of goodwill, like a small discount for people who bought HoI3 either within the first month of release at full price or pre-ordered wouldn't be a bad idea.