1.4 Another Round of Disappointment

[TheLoneGunman]

Wow.

That's all I can say.

Every time I shamble into the HOI3 forum out of boredom because nothing is going on in OT, I see the usual PI bashing/defending, historic/sandbox, and now apparently Lothos/TheWorld is now the new craze...

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and do one of these...

 

[unmerged(90249)]

Wow.

That's all I can say.

Every time I shamble into the HOI3 forum out of boredom because nothing is going on in OT, I see the usual PI bashing/defending, historic/sandbox, and now apparently Lothos/TheWorld is now the new craze...

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and do one of these...

LOL

Well I do not knwo for other, but he not a new craze of mine but an old one. But I do recon the guy is resillient and have courage (such as trying to show off his knowledge while a quick look in HOI2 AI files may show his 'qualities')

On the other hand, and without any bashing, Lothos at least tried, try and I am sure will try to do something for improving HOI2/HOI3 and maybe a future HOI4. Let say my fight is only professional, with maybe some jealousy (I do not think so, but who knows? ) as he was the choosen for those tasks instead of me (I never applied for the job, nor did published any mods anyway, so no reasons whatsoever to pick me up lol). I applaud loudly to his will, to his dedication, to his constant effort to improve thing ... I do ask firmly (loudly?) if he have the competency to achieve the hight goals he may have.

My point was : the game is not delivering what was promised; but instead to spend the time in fixing, people who are in the dev team spend it by coming here and 'brain wash us' in buying the new expension that will finally (paroles, paroles, paroles ... Toujours des mots ... old french song with Dalida and A.Delon) deliver what we were promise eons ago (in fact 1 year ago) and for wich we already spend our hard earned money (yes , yes ). I feel they are making a joke of me, so I do make a joke of them ...

 

[TheLoneGunman]

LOL

Well I do not knwo for other, but he not a new craze of mine but an old one. But I do recon the guy is resillient and have courage (such as trying to show off his knowledge while a quick look in HOI2 AI files may show his 'qualities')

On the other hand, and without any bashing, Lothos at least tried, try and I am sure will try to do something for improving HOI2/HOI3 and maybe a future HOI4. Let say my fight is only professional, with maybe some jealousy (I do not think so, but who knows? ) as he was the choosen for those tasks instead of me (I never applied for the job, nor did published any mods anyway, so no reasons whatsoever to pick me up lol). I applaud loudly to his will, to his dedication, to his constant effort to improve thing ... I do ask firmly (loudly?) if he have the competency to achieve the hight goals he may have.

My point was : the game is not delivering what was promised; but instead to spend the time in fixing, people who are in the dev team spend it by coming here and 'brain wash us' in buying the new expension that will finally (paroles, paroles, paroles ... Toujours des mots ... old french song with Dalida and A.Delon) deliver what we were promise eons ago (in fact 1 year ago) and for wich we already spend our hard earned money (yes , yes ). I feel they are making a joke of me, so I do make a joke of them ...

And you're well within your rights to be critical of the game.

Heck, I pre-ordered HOI3, so I really feel your pain on the shape of the game.

The problem is, all threads like this have done is simply rehash the same tired old arguments.

Johan has already admitted that they tried to do way too much with HOI3, it was overly ambitious, instead of focusing on the core gameplay that made HOI2 and its expansions so successful.

The fact that Victoria 2 will try to improve upon Victoria 1 instead of completely redesigning the game from the ground up is proof that they've learned their lesson.

That being said, a lot of what we want from HOI3 will take more than a patch to provide. I'm sure any optimizations to the AI that can be ported from Semper Fi over to vanilla HOI3 will be made if possible, but I don't see any big changes to the actual game engine from HOI3 any more, it is what it is, and you've either got to make the choice to abandon it and show PI you're upset by not buying their product, or try to get the most out of it and get Semper Fi when it comes out.

I happen to have a little faith that we'll get a smooth and good working game soon, maybe not with Semper Fi's initial release, but hopefully after a few patches and maybe a second expansion depending on what we as a community happen to feel is lacking still.

So yeah, lets cut the chatter. If anyone here is still truly disillusioned about HOI3, contact Frederick and get your money back, otherwise, lets work on improving this thing as much as we can together.

 

[PrivateJoh]

Let me start bottom up, as your post grows more and more unbelievable as I read:

If anyone here is still truly disillusioned about HOI3, contact Frederick and get your money back

Is this an official Paradox statement?

That being said, a lot of what we want from HOI3 will take more than a patch to provide. I'm sure any optimizations to the AI that can be ported from Semper Fi over to vanilla HOI3 will be made if possible

Unbelievable.

More that a patch can provide? What about a 1.4hotfix then? Are "features" like laughable building queues, chronic lack of man power for a key major, positive disrupting research, absent CAGs, mystical naval warfare, ignoring entire fronts, shattering support brigades, random/absolutely restrictive supply system, unlimited reach naval units, indestructible air units and so on not worth any effort?

If possible? I guess/hope there is irony there.

Johan has already admitted that they tried to do way too much with HOI3, it was overly ambitious, instead of focusing on the core gameplay that made HOI2 and its expansions so successful.

Beyond words.

What sort of logic is this?

They promised too much, and failed to achieve it, so what? As a customer, I do not care about their problems, I care about getting what I paid for, irrespective whether it was $40 or $5. And HoI3 patch 1.4 miserably fails to do so!

Is 1.4 playable? Definitely yes.
Is it fun? Mostly.
Is it a polished/finished product? NO WAY! There are too many capital features of the game that are not working.

I do not want new features, I want the ones that were announced to work without the need to buy an expansion!

Any other industry in the world (apart from software companies) would never get away with this marketing policy).

 

[TheLoneGunman]

Is this an official Paradox statement?

He's the CEO of the company, when people were complaining about 1.2 and 1.3 he made such an offer.

Unbelievable.

More that a patch can provide? What about a 1.4hotfix then? Are "features" like laughable building queues, chronic lack of man power for a key major, positive disrupting research, absent CAGs, mystical naval warfare, ignoring entire fronts, shattering support brigades, random/absolutely restrictive supply system, unlimited reach naval units, indestructible air units and so on not worth any effort?

If possible? I guess/hope there is irony there.

Agreed, most of the initial things you list can be fixed via the LUA scripts. Some of it might get supported as carryovers from Semper Fi. I don't have a magic ball, so I won't be able to tell you if they'll continue to patch vanilla HOI3, but let's be honest, people are going to fall into one of two categories, those who will buy Semper Fi to get more features and fixes, and those who stop at HOI3 and shelve it for the rest of their life.

Beyond words.

What sort of logic is this?

They promised too much, and failed to achieve it, so what? As a customer, I do not care about their problems, I care about getting what I paid for, irrespective whether it was $40 or $5. And HoI3 patch 1.4 miserably fails to do so!

Is 1.4 playable? Definitely yes.
Is it fun? Mostly.
Is it a polished/finished product? NO WAY! There are too many capital features of the game that are not working.

I do not want new features, I want the ones that were announced to work without the need to buy an expansion!

Any other industry in the world (apart from software companies) would never get away with this marketing policy).

There is a limited budget for patches, and the focus was on thigns such as CTDs and game-killing bugs. Now we can argue till we're blue in the face that the AI is still incompetent and whether or not that is a bug (and I happen to agree with you), but aside from volunteer work from people like Lothos, I don't see them releasing much more for vanilla HOI3, like I said I don't have a crystal ball, and I most certainly don't have any sort of relationship with PI other than being a customer just like you.

As for the marketing policy, welcome to the world of computer games. There are far worse companies you could be buying games from if Paradox has you this hot and bothered.

Now I'm getting some serious deja vu because I've had this conversation a few hundred times before.

The best I can personally hope for is that the expansion addresses all of the issues you brought up and makes HOI3 worth playing for me, because I wouldn't even call it fun yet to be honest.

 

[Lothos]

I still remember FIFA 2009, EA claimed it was a finished product but yet about every 3rd game I played occasionally half the players would run off the field and hang out behind the goal post so the other side could get an easy goal.

Did they fix it? No!

I remember Empire Total War where the AI would run out of heavily defended forts to its death.

Did they fix it? No!

I remember Napoleon Total WAr where the AI builds massive armies and just sits at his capital while I run around through the rest of his country destroying it.

Did they fix it? No!


Every game has issues, no such thing as a complete and polished game. We just try and make the best of it! Games are very complex and any person who is a developer that thinks it is easy is a fool! I see constant posts that say "Hey I am a develoepr its just a simple if statement!" when the reality is 99% of the time it is not.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

I still remember FIFA 2009, EA claimed it was a finished product but yet about every 3rd game I played occasionally half the players would run off the field and hang out behind the goal post so the other side could get an easy goal.

Did they fix it? No!

I remember Empire Total War where the AI would run out of heavily defended forts to its death.

Did they fix it? No!

I remember Napoleon Total WAr where the AI builds massive armies and just sits at his capital while I run around through the rest of his country destroying it.

Did they fix it? No!


Every game has issues, no such thing as a complete and polished game. We just try and make the best of it! Games are very complex and any person who is a developer that thinks it is easy is a fool! I see constant posts that say "Hey I am a develoepr its just a simple if statement!" when the reality is 99% of the time it is not.

Well I've already said it, if you don't like a product, stop buying from the maker.

Thankfully, I didn't have to deal with the issues you listed regarding Napoleon: Total War because Empire was the last Total War game I plan on buying unless they make some big changes to the way they make their games.

Had Semper Fi been announced as a standalone game, I doubt I'd even think about buying it either.

 

[PrivateJoh]

He's the CEO of the company, when people were complaining about 1.2 and 1.3 he made such an offer.

So, you don't really know and are talking for yourself based on past information. Then I would suggest your not making that remark, as it is misleading.

There is a limited budget for patches

There is a limited budget for EVERYTHING, but if I am sitting at my recently bought place with the roof leaking, I will definitely call the constructor and get him/her to fix it. And I would personally not give shit about his budget.

There are far worse companies you could be buying games from if Paradox has you this hot and bothered.

I still remember FIFA 2009, EA claimed it was a finished product but yet about every 3rd game I played occasionally half the players would run off the field and hang out behind the goal post so the other side could get an easy goal.

Did they fix it? No!

I remember Empire Total War where the AI would run out of heavily defended forts to its death.

Did they fix it? No!

I remember Napoleon Total WAr where the AI builds massive armies and just sits at his capital while I run around through the rest of his country destroying it.

Did they fix it? No!

Thank you very much for your extremely mature response. Yes, your father is stronger than mine :rofl:.

Never played FIFA, so I would not know. Never played E/N TW, so I would not know. And if I did, I would go so some of their forums (let it be official or not) and complain about it, definitely NOT HERE.

Yeah, we are evil, but our enemies are much more evil, which makes us the good guys. Well, no, no matter how evil the other ones are, you are still evil.

Every game has issues, no such thing as a complete and polished game. We just try and make the best of it! Games are very complex and any person who is a developer that thinks it is easy is a fool! I see constant posts that say "Hey I am a develoepr its just a simple if statement!" when the reality is 99% of the time it is not.

Well, I am not a game developer, but I guess it is not simple.

However, I am pretty sure designing and constructing LCD/LED TVs making sure each of the 3*1920*1080 pixels is working, and will be working for the next 5 years is not a small feat. But hey, they do work and if not, they will give you another TV.

As for my use of polished/finished, please regard it as a poor attempt to use my English in a very constructive and benevolent manner. I guess it would have been much clearer if I had used the "Does it have game breaking issues?" Sure, clearer but that would have, most probably, got you into a self-combusting state.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

So, you don't really know and are talking for yourself based on past information. Then I would suggest your not making that remark, as it is misleading.

Your best bet would be to PM him for yourself if you desire a refund. Being the CEO of the company, I'm sure he's the one who could arrange such a thing if anyone can.

 

[Lothos]

Actually you can't go to the Total War forums and complain about it cause they ban anyone that does.

My point was pretty simple, every game has issues and bugs. Be thankfull Paradox patches their games so much and in some cases even includes new stuff in their patches. Also their games are WAY cheaper than most of these other companies. The Total War games on release where $69.99 (now allot cheaper). Not only that but they sell about 5 times more copies than Paradox games do since they get more exposure to the press and have a much larger budget. So think about that! Paradox has about 1/4th the big boy sales which probably means 1/4th the budget.

Persoanlly I love Paradox, only game company I ever met where the director (not developer) of development takes his time to read the forums and reply to people. Johan is one of a kind!

Yes you should say something if it does not work, but to whine over and over about it and then insult people and literally call PI morons (not directly but indirectly people are infering that) is beyond silly.

 

[raider75]

I am pretty sure that will never happen but that is totally up to PI. Remember they are a gaming company not a open development project.

Well maybe that is the problem. It has pretty consistently been Paradox Interactive's policy to release a title that is not 100% completed and then rely on massive community feedback to redress and finish the product. If this is going to be Paradox's policy (which it most definitely will be, and you know what; I actually find it a good system, sure it has HUGE failings, but it also makes for an extremely responsive development team that caters to what it's fan base wants) why not make their games/titles a sort of hybrid project. They already are pretty much. Why not have them release the source code and such and actively collaborate with the community to make a truly great game. I'm sure there can be some creative way so that Paradox still gets it's $35 for the work that it puts in for every copy of the game; and then when the game is released in its only semi-finished status (as Paradox does) both the Community AND Developers may work hand in hand polishing up the game mechanics. Just a brainstorm. Please don't flame me. I love Paradox.

And I don't want to presume anything but if Budgeting is an issue why doesn't Paradox cut down on all of these third party and minor titles that it has and only work on major projects? I mean, I don't know anyone who was hyped up for the release of "Rush for Berlin" or "Silent Heroes" or all the other minor and third party titles they release (no offense Paradox). I just think that maybe they would be better served focusing on what they do best; making amazing Real Time Grand Strategy games like Viki and HOI and EU. And one last thing; maybe stop with the mass proliferation of Spin offs and expansion packs (DD, Armageddon, SI, Rome &c.), focus in on the main game and finish it first and then maybe look into expanding the title. I really hope what I've said here won't be taken the wrong way. I really do love Paradox and I'm not trying to flame them or anything; just offer some constructive criticism to my favorite studio.


P.S. I CAN'T WAIT FOR VIKI:2!!!!

 

[TheLoneGunman]

Well maybe that is the problem. It has pretty consistently been Paradox Interactive's policy to release a title that is not 100% completed and then rely on massive community feedback to redress and finish the product. If this is going to be Paradox's policy (which it most definitely will be, and you know what; I actually find it a good system, sure it has HUGE failings, but it also makes for an extremely responsive development team that caters to what it's fan base wants) why not make their games/titles a sort of hybrid project. They already are pretty much. Why not have them release the source code and such and actively collaborate with the community to make a truly great game. I'm sure there can be some creative way so that Paradox still gets it's $35 for the work that it puts in for every copy of the game; and then when the game is released in its only semi-finished status (as Paradox does) both the Community AND Developers may work hand in hand polishing up the game mechanics. Just a brainstorm. Please don't flame me. I love Paradox.

And I don't want to presume anything but if Budgeting is an issue why doesn't Paradox cut down on all of these third party and minor titles that it has and only work on major projects? I mean, I don't know anyone who was hyped up for the release of "Rush for Berlin" or "Silent Heroes" or all the other minor and third party titles they release (no offense Paradox). I just think that maybe they would be better served focusing on what they do best; making amazing Real Time Grand Strategy games like Viki and HOI and EU. And one last thing; maybe stop with the mass proliferation of Spin offs and expansion packs (DD, Armageddon, SI, Rome &c.), focus in on the main game and finish it first and then maybe look into expanding the title. I really hope what I've said here won't be taken the wrong way. I really do love Paradox and I'm not trying to flame them or anything; just offer some constructive criticism to my favorite studio.


P.S. I CAN'T WAIT FOR VIKI:2!!!!

The closest we have to the system you described is what PI does with small modders/developers for projects such as AoD, FtG, and MM.

 

[unmerged(150720)]

If Paradox doesn't clean the game from bugs, it's like buying a product with a scratch on it. Well it's not worse than Empire: Total War... AT LEAST!!

 

[TheLoneGunman]

If Paradox doesn't clean the game from bugs, it's like buying a product with a scratch on it. Well it's not worse than Empire: Total War... AT LEAST!!

It boils down to what you consider a bug.

If an incompetent AI is a bug, then sure, they still have some patching to do.

I don't think you'll find any developer that thinks bad AI is a bug though.

 

[raider75]

The closest we have to the system you described is what PI does with small modders/developers for projects such as AoD, FtG, and MM.

Well what I was imagining would be a much closer relationship than currently exists

 

[unmerged(150720)]

It boils down to what you consider a bug.

If an incompetent AI is a bug, then sure, they still have some patching to do.

I don't think you'll find any developer that thinks bad AI is a bug though.

I'm new to HoI3 so i can't say it yet, but if there is some problems with the game they should be fixed. The customer pretty much have the right to that, until the majority is happy.

So far, i think this game is funny in my first game as Germany. I control everything myself, but still i think it's very easy. I easily conquered France and the UK. Now i'm looking forward to add Soviet into ze Reich.

 

[PrivateJoh]

Be thankfull Paradox patches their games so much and in some cases even includes new stuff in their patches.

Every company patches their games. To the success of all this patches ...

Also their games are WAY cheaper than most of these other companies. The Total War games on release where $69.99 (now allot cheaper). Not only that but they sell about 5 times more copies than Paradox games do since they get more exposure to the press and have a much larger budget. So think about that! Paradox has about 1/4th the big boy sales which probably means 1/4th the budget.

If Paradox doesn't clean the game from bugs, it's like buying a product with a scratch on it. Well it's not worse than Empire: Total War... AT LEAST!!

And here we go again.

What on earth has the TW series to do with my complains?

Could we please talk about HoI3?

If you want to talk about TW I would recommend going to forums that actually deal with them!

Yes you should say something if it does not work, but to whine over and over about it and then insult people and literally call PI morons (not directly but indirectly people are infering that) is beyond silly.

Insulting someone because you think they might be leading people to believe they are insulting someone, is not a very logical thing to do.

In any case, I'd say that, if these people wanted anyone to infer anything about PI, INCOMPETENT would much better describe their intention, definitely not morons.

And yes, I'd say PI's responsible for HoI3 is fairly incompetent if the "issues" I mentioned before are not corrected.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

And yes, I'd say PI's responsible for HoI3 is fairly incompetent if the "issues" I mentioned before are not corrected.

Even if they get corrected in an expansion that requires the original game to play?

 

[Dimes]

And here we go again.

This is the only sensible thing you have said in this thread.

IF you had been reading the forums you would have known that PI indeed for months explained to the people here how to go about getting refunds if they were that dissatisfied with the game. I don't know if that offer is still active.

Stop comparing how you would react to stuff being wrong with things that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars (like houses) compared to buying something for fifty dollars. This is not the same - at all. Usually I don't consult a lawyer/realtor/whatever other expert when buying a pc game - when I look for a house I do.

I agree that there are issues with the game - I just don't think that there is quite as much wrong with it as you seem to do. Is it unplayable? No, as far as I'm concerned it is playable. Is it fun to play? I find it so.

Will it get better? Most likely - that's at least what PI's usual game history shows. Will it get better without buying an expansion? Most likely not - again that's at least what PI's usual game history shows. But if you look at that history you will also realize that it has the possibility of becoming an EXCELLENT game - but usually it takes 2-3 expansions and some further patching. But the good thing about that is that you get to influence which direction the game takes, right here on this forum.

If you don't like the way that looks then maybe you should have done as much research regarding buying this game as you would have before buying the piece of real estate you compare it to.

And I'll repeat myself from another thread with more complainers feeling soooooo entitled: There is a difference between constructive critisism - saying exactly what they think is wrong with the game and how it might be done better (and preferably in the right forum) - and just going on an internet rage about the game being broken and comparing it to buying a house or a car or even as was the case in some threads, threatening PI with all kinds of crap; the former is part of the solution, the latter is just being another problem...

 

[Lothos]

And yes, I'd say PI's responsible for HoI3 is fairly incompetent if the "issues" I mentioned before are not corrected.

Would you like some cheese with that whine?