1.30 Portuguese Ideas Rework Suggestions

1.30 Portuguese Ideas Rework Suggestions

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Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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Although the 1.30 patch does not address the Iberian peninsula directly, it was said by the devs that the occasional tweak outside the scope of the patch might be possible. According to the screenshots on the Dev Diaries for 1.30, The Portuguese National Ideas are being reworked, yet since there has been no official statement on the new ideas, i'm going to give my own suggestion on which ideas make the most sense for Portugal from a Historical and Gameplay perspective, I also included the date of the Portuguese period that the idea was trying to represent, so that there is a chronological logic behind the idea order.

My Portuguese Ideas Suggestion:

Traditions (1383-1460):
+15% Shock Defense

Late Medieval Portugal has proved time and time again to punch way above its own weight in the military field, having fought 5 wars against the far larger and more Powerful Kingdom of Castille in the 14th century alone and always reaching either a military stalemate (D.Afonso IV's punitive invasion of Castille 1335-1339, and the 3 Fernandine Wars 1369-1382) or decisive victories (War of the Portuguese Succession 1383-1385, where very underrated battles like Aljubarrota, Valverde and Atoleiros rival those of Angincourt or Crecy).
In the aforementioned Battles the most impressive feature of the Portuguese army was to be able to withstand charge after charge of Castillian and French Cavalry charges by holding tight spearmen formations and digging ditches and traps to disorganise the enemy advance, thus shock defense makes the most sense for a Portuguese combat bonus
Shock Defense falls off in the Late Game when Fire becomes dominant, so this Tradition will only be powerful in the early game, which was the peak of Portuguese power.
+15% Shock defense should be make Portugal's army almost as strong in equal numbers as Castille, which starts with a superior +15% Morale traditions, and according to the Battle of Toro in the Castilian Succession War in 1476, when a Portuguese army and a Castilian army of equal numbers met in battle the outcome was indecisive and casualties identical for both sides.

+15% Fort Defense
A reference to the 1384 Siege of Lisbon, although also making sense during the rest of the timeframe as was confirmed during the 1538 and 1546 sieges of Diu (where the Ottoman-Gujarat forces outnumbered the garrison 40 to 1) and the 1562 great siege of Mazagan (where the Moroccan army outnumbered the garrison 100 to 1)
Although Portugal doesn't exactly have a long list of large scale offensive wars, it is undeniable that such a small nation was very capable at defending its sovereignity from invasions of some of the most powerful European nations of their time, such as Spain and France, against all odds

(1460-1498) - Legacy of the Navigator:
+1 Naval Tradition
+25% Colonial Range

This is the vanilla idea, the idea is fine, however the +25% sailors modifier was changed to a +1 Naval tradition, since undoubtedly the Legacy of the Navigator is the strong seafaring tradition omnipresent in Portuguese culture untill this very day, and a +sailors bonus is technically sort of a manpower buff, which is ridiculous since by far the greatest strain on the Portuguese Empire was their small manpower pool
+25% Sailors modifier is basically useless since Portugal has a massive abundance of sailors anyway, while +1 Tradition can help with both trade, good admirals (There are plenty of renowned Portuguese navigators) and slightly increasing in their currently worthless naval combat ability

(1498-1515)- Mare Clausum
+15% Light Ship Combat Ability
+30% Marine Combat Ability

Mare Clausum was the Portuguese doctrine of "locking" the Indian sea under Portuguese jurisdiction, the strategy revolved around the conquest of several key strategic harbours around the Indian ocean to allow Portugal to project naval power over the entire Ocean. This was achieved by the conquest of several cities/Islands such as Mombassa, Socotra, Muscat, Hormuz, Goa, Calicut, Diu, Ceylon, Malacca and many others in just a single decade.
I suggested a light ship combat buff as a reference to the Caravel, a very mobile light ship that was useful for exploration, and combat.
I chose a strong Marine buff to make Portugal more effective at waging overseas wars (At this point, Marines are fairly useless and rare, so a large +30% combat ability for them doesn't actually make a significant difference in the grand scheme of things). Historically, the bonus that would make most sense would be Artillery Fire +1, since the portuguese advantage in the 16th century was it's very advanced artillery, but Spain already has that so i guess its off the table.
Artillery combat ability is a big no, since it benefits the late game artillery and not the early game artillery.
Have you ever tried to play Portugal historically and take Mombassa (Involves war with Kilwa), Hormuz (Usually involves war with the Timurids), Goa, Calicut and Ceylon (Involves was with Vijayanagar), and Malacca (involves war with Malacca which is a tributary of Ming) before 1511?
It is simply pure madness.
A hefty naval and marine buff might help Portugal with these sorts of overseas battles without turning their regular army overpowered. Although a +1 Artillery Fire would be far better to boost Portugal's early game without scaling much.

(1515-1580)- Feitoria System
-15% Trade Investment cost (or +10% local trade power)
The Feitoria system was the staple of the Portuguese trade Empire, it revolved around small usually fortified trade posts around the globe to secure and protect trade, Trade Company investments are just that, thus it make perfect sense.
In case the player has no DLC then this translates better to a more abstract "Local trade power modifier"
Not much to argue about in here, its a trade-related bonus and Portugal in the current state of the game is already extremely trade-oriented

(1580-1602)- The Spice Trade
+10% Light Ship Trade Propagation

Currently, Portugal has a very high emphasis on Trade Efficiency buffs, However i would argue that out of all trade-related bonuses, efficiency is one of those who Portugal deserves the least.
Portugal wasn't efficient at profiting with what they had, that honour belongs to Venice and Genoa who dominanted trade in Europe despite having no colonial possessions, Portugal had a high trade income because they had a monopoly on the sea route to the orient and simply had no competition. Portugal should dominate trade by establishing a trade-post empire all the way to Japan before anyone of their rivals does, not by being inherently better than their rivals at managing their trade income.
This reinforces the Portuguese strategy of conquering centers of trade in trade-company areas and then protecting trade with light ships, instead of some boring abstract trade efficiency bonus

(1602-1640)-Encourage the Bandeirantes
+15 Global Settler Increase
The Bandeirantes were explorers that dwelved deep into the Brazilian interior, charted the area and claimed it for Portugal, effectively allowing the colonisation of interior Brazil. It makes far more sense for them to be considered a Colonist than a Merchant. However, since Spain already has a +1 Colonist idea, i don't think the devs will ever give Portugal one, so i guess its fine if they just keep their +15 Settler increase instead.
Portugal already has a +15 settler increase, so nothing to argue here

(1640-1688)- Guerrilha Warfare
+1 Attrition for Enemies
+10% Infantry combat ability

This is supposed to represent the 1640-1688 Portuguese restauration war, where Portugal used intensive scorched earth tactics against the far stronger Spanish Empire, as well as resorting to popular militias and asymmetrical warfare to harass the Spanish forces as much as possible, this Portuguese use of Scorched Earth and popular militias was again used to great effect during the 7 years war and the Napoleonic wars against the much larger Spain and France resulting again in Portuguese victory.
If you are not convinced about the effectiveness of Portuguese Scorched Earth tactics, then read up on the Fantastic War (3/4's of the Franco-Spanish invasion army died during the invasion, despite there not being a single large scale battle at all, and attrition doing most of the job).
The infantry combat ability is meant to reflect the fact that the Portuguese army was actually quite cappable from in the second half of the game.
It won outnumbered battles against Spain in the Restauration war, against the Netherlands in the Dutch-Portuguese war, against the Spanish and French in the War of the Spanish Succession, 7 Years war and Napoleonic wars.
As it stands, Spain and France have insanely superior quality to Portugal
Portugal in Eu4 only has a meager 9 provinces, which are usually very well developed, they have no mountain provinces (despite the North having a very rugged landscape) and have no winters in any of their territories (Despite the provinces of Bragança and Beira having lower average winter temperatures than Ireland (which has normal winters). So its pretty safe to say that without an attrition for enemies bonus, nobody will ever take any sort of attrition in Portuguese territory.
(Which they should)
The infantry combat ability is small, and simply makes Portugal slightly a bit competitive militarily at the later parts of the game.
You might think 3 military ideas are too much, but you need to understand that these are necessary because Portugal can't really get military buffs in any other way. It doesn't get them from missions, it doesn't get them from religion, it doesn't get them from government reforms, it does not get them from any unique events or mechanics, it has no unique units, it has no age-related bonuses, it has literally nothing.
They are not in a position to get bonuses in any other way.

(1688 onwards)- Pluricontinentalism
+10% Trade Steering

This is supposed to represent the Portuguese triangular trade economy between Africa, Brazil and Portugal in the 17th century.
The Royal Absolutism idea of -15% construction cost seems to try to represent the pombaline reformation and of the rebuilding of Lisbon after the earthquake, however IMO that happens too far into the 18th century to be unlocked by ideas (which will be very likely fully unlocked before the 17th century)
Trade steering from the Colonies into the Seville node is the quintessential Portugal economic strategy both in game and real life, so this idea is basically a must)

Ambition:
20% Global Tariffs

After the loss of most of their Asian colonies to the Native Empires and rival European powers, the Portuguese abandoned the idea of dominanting the Indian Ocean and instead started rellying mostly in their largest colony, Brazil, and in expanding their African dominions in Angola and Mozambique. The Global Tariffs ambition is actually one of the few Portuguese ideas that are, IMO, 100% accurate.
I actually nerfed this vanilla idea a bit to compensate the military buffs
.

To summarize, this gives Portugal:

-Average military quality, still inferior quality to any military-oriented nation.

-Decent naval quality, on pair with other seafaring nations such as Spain, Oman, Venice and the Netherlands, but still inferior to Naval-Specialised nations such as Great Britain, Denmark, Norway or Genoa.

-Strong Defensive capabilities, for a more effective defense of theirsmall nation.

-Stronger early game (as irl) but out of touch with the late game (as irl)

- More complex trade bonuses that require a bit more of an active pursuit of Historical Portuguese strategies to be effective, rather than simple flat bonuses to production and efficiency.

-Colonial capabilities are left untouched.



Unrelated to ideas but also really immersion breaking:
The Portuguese starting historical advisor
"Henry the Navigator" is an Admiral, and not, a Navigator.
 
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rus-chel

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I really wish taht Portugal would get both +1 colonist and trader.
Portugal should be a tier-1 power. Not Mughal or Quan level, but Portugal ideas SHOULD give it enough power to compete with Castile-Spain in trade, colonies and naval
 

Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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I really wish taht Portugal would get both +1 colonist and trader.
+1 Trader kind of makes sense but it is a bit pointless, since Portugal's whole point is to get trade companies all over the place, so you really should be overflowing in traders anyway.
When it comes to +1 Colonist i don't think Portugal deserves to have such a strong colonial game, because they lacked the population to colonize on the same scale as Spain, France or the U.K.
Portugal was the first country who began colonizing outside of Europe, and yet Spain, Britain and France's colonial Empires dwarfed Portugal's in size. Portugal's +50 settlers Age bonus is good to help Portugal get a head start on a few centers of trade in Africa, but after the Age Reformation Spain (and later Great Britain) utterly dominated the Colonization game. So i believe Spain and G.B should have far stronger colonial ideas than Portugal.

Portugal should be a tier-1 power.
I don't think Portugal should be a tier-1 country, simply because they should always have a much smaller total development than the other Tier-1 nations, because Portugal was quite small, had a small population and wasn't exactly particularly rich for European standards. However, they should have tier-1 ideas, because despite their small size and small population, they did punch way above their weight on global influence and war alike.

but Portugal ideas SHOULD give it enough power to compete with Castile-Spain in trade, colonies and naval
I don't think Portugal should be able to compete with Castille/Spain, but only because Spain/Castille should have at least 5x the Portuguese total development at all times.
When it comes to national ideas however i agree they should have equally good (or maybe even better) ideas, to try to slightly reduce the development gap.
 
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The new ideas are out, basically the same as were before but with the following additions:
-33% Morale hit when loosing a ship
Historical logic: I have no idea what this is supposed to represent.
Gameplay logic: Its basically a "losing less" bonus, instead of one that actually helps you to win the engagement.
+5% Ship disengagement chance
Historical logic: I also have idea what this is supposed to represent, and in fact it seems quite paradoxical that Portugal is now apparently good at both good at sustaining their resolve despite suffering heavy losses while simultaneously being experts at retreating.
Gameplay logic: I have no idea how useful this actually is, since its a new modifier, but its safe to assume its another "losing less" modifier.
+10% Artillery combat
Historical logic: The bonus makes sense, the idea name does not, its named after a 1790 institution while this idea will innevitably be unlocked during the 1500's
Gameplay logic: Does not make sense. Its the last idea and artillery combat is primarily a late game bonus, Portugal needs a strong early game not a strong late game.
+10% Defensiveness
Historical logic: Same as above.
Gameplay logic: Makes sense, although its significance is very low and its no more than a slight delay in an innevitable defeat, which reeinforces the fact that this set is made to "loose less".


Conclusion: Disappointing
 
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The new ideas are out, basically the same as were before but with the following additions:
-33% Morale hit when loosing a ship
Historical logic: I have no idea what this is supposed to represent.
Gameplay logic: Its basically a "losing less" bonus, instead of one that actually helps you to win the engagement.
+5% Ship disengagement chance
Historical logic: I also have idea what this is supposed to represent, and in fact it seems quite paradoxical that Portugal is now apparently good at both good at sustaining their resolve despite suffering heavy losses while simultaneously being experts at retreating.

I honestly think that the only reason Portugal is getting this disappointing naval idea is because:
  1. They needed to tweak some NIs to reflect the new Naval system
  2. Those of us disappointed in PT ideas are very outspoken
Therefore, they gave us this completely irrelevant idea to shut up the annoyed PT players while showcasing their newest game additions.

Disappointing indeed....
 
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rus-chel

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still underpowered for a country listed as 'recommended'.
Will continue asking for a buff.
And may be some alt-history missions at the bottom of a tree...just saying
 
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Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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still underpowered for a country listed as 'recommended'.
Will continue asking for a buff.
And may be some alt-history missions at the bottom of a tree...just saying
I was very conservative on the power of the ideas on purpose to be taken more seriously and not be dismissed as biased.
 

Mr.Grizzly

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These ideas still better then the new ones lol, why are they so afraid to give military ideas to Portugal, "Oh boy, I get +10% Artillery Combat and +10% Defensiveness after getting 21 ideas, despite my country going around establishing outposts through conquest and participating in major wars, I wonder what my neighbor Spain gets? Oh...." Only new idea that looks interesting is the new Legacy of the Navigator bonus, but to me, navigation doesn't remind me of naval combat.
 
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These ideas still better then the new ones lol, why are they so afraid to give military ideas to Portugal, "Oh boy, I get +10% Artillery Combat and +10% Defensiveness after getting 21 ideas, despite my country going around establishing outposts through conquest and participating in major wars, I wonder what my neighbor Spain gets? Oh...." Only new idea that looks interesting is the new Legacy of the Navigator bonus, but to me, navigation doesn't remind me of naval combat.
Even when compared to other European Nations of equal or superior technology, Portugal always performed way above its size.
There are dozens of examples of battles against much larger and/or wealthier such as Castille, Spain, France and Netherlands and Portugal was consistently able to win battles despite being numerical inferior.
I am not even aware of a single battle where Portugal outnumbered an enemy and still lost, therefore i cannot think of any justification why they should have such a trash military quality.
 
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Land combat bonus still needed. May be a mix morale/land fire
And will ask again and again - Portugal is a country that DESERVES a colonist in idea set.
And i'm just saying - Casa de India is requiring a bit too much conquests in India. Considering Portugal was never near conquring that was as required in mission.
 

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Land combat bonus still needed. May be a mix morale/land fire
And will ask again and again - Portugal is a country that DESERVES a colonist in idea set.
And i'm just saying - Casa de India is requiring a bit too much conquests in India. Considering Portugal was never near conquring that was as required in mission.

I think speeding up their colony growth is the better path, Portugal didn't sprawl across the world and set up colonies everywhere, they mostly only colonized Brazil, the rest of their colonial possessions were territory taken by force or purchased from others. So to me, making them really good at making colonies fast but limiting them from colonizing even more places makes more sense. I do think their settler boost should be bigger than others to make them stand out more.

Agreed about land combat bonus though, +10% Artillery Combat Bonus is hardly anything and you don't get it until the end, same with the defensiveness bonus. Now I don't know how good the Portuguese artillery was in history, but maybe a tradition of -10% Shock Damage and an ambition or later idea of +10% Fire Damage. That way it's not just the generic +5% Discipline or +10/15% Morale of Armies.
 

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I think speeding up their colony growth is the better path, Portugal didn't sprawl across the world and set up colonies everywhere, they mostly only colonized Brazil, the rest of their colonial possessions were territory taken by force or purchased from others. So to me, making them really good at making colonies fast but limiting them from colonizing even more places makes more sense. I do think their settler boost should be bigger than others to make them stand out more.
Couldn't disagree more about colonization. They absolutely did not colonize fast, in fact they were quite slow.
For perspective, Portugal started colonizing in 1500, Brittain only started colonizing by ~1600 yet by 1750 they had already colonized more than Portugal who had been in the colonial game for twice as long.

If anyone deserves Colonial ideas, its Spain, they Colonized much faster and far more than Portugal or anyone else really. And yet Portugal usually out-performs Spain Colonially in Eu4.

Eu4 Portugal always outperforms real life Portugal when it comes to colonization.

As for military, where Portugal vastly underperforms in game compared to real life, they performed far better in the early game, therefore shock defense, shock damage, infantry power and morale in traditions and first ideas make much more sense than fire damage, fire defense, artillery combat or discipline in the late ideas or ambitions.
 
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and ship disengage chance - it's abhorrend bonus. It can't be good in EUIV.
One can argue, that barely anything changed.
 

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Couldn't disagree more about colonization. They absolutely did not colonize fast, in fact they were quite slow.
For perspective, Portugal started colonizing in 1500, Brittain only started colonizing by ~1600 yet by 1750 they had already colonized more than Portugal who had been in the colonial game for twice as long.

If anyone deserves Colonial ideas, its Spain, they Colonized much faster and far more than Portugal or anyone else really. And yet Portugal usually out-performs Spain Colonially in Eu4.

Eu4 Portugal always outperforms real life Portugal when it comes to colonization.

As for military, where Portugal vastly underperforms in game compared to real life, they performed far better in the early game, therefore shock defense, shock damage, infantry power and morale in traditions and first ideas make much more sense than fire damage, fire defense, artillery combat or discipline in the late ideas or ambitions.

I just meant that if we are giving Portugal a colonial idea, that I think settler growth would be better, I'm not trying to say Portugal was super good at colonization, but I think boosting their colony growth would be more fitting than +1 Colonist. Spain and Great Britain should be the big 2 colonial powerhouses, France is tricky because it claimed land but didn't really colonize too much outside of Canada. I agree that Castile/Spain should be much better at colonizing then Portugal, but I don't think Portugal shouldn't have no bonuses to colonizing. Of course their primary focus should be on conquering outposts or chartering land, but something to represent the colonization of Brazil would be nice.

As for military, where Portugal vastly underperforms in game compared to real life, they performed far better in the early game, therefore shock defense, shock damage, infantry power and morale in traditions and first ideas make much more sense than fire damage, fire defense, artillery combat or discipline in the late ideas or ambitions.

I was suggesting the start with -10% Shock Damage Received to represent them holding out against larger armies, but shock becomes useless eventually so I proposed +10% Fire Damage as a last idea or ambition that way they still have something. If +10% Fire Damage doesn't make sense would -10% Fire Damage Received make sense? That way they can hold out longer in both combat phases? Now that I think about it, I kind of like that idea more.
 

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I think boosting their colony growth would be more fitting than +1 Colonist
I agree.
Although i said "The Bandeirantes" are best represented as a Colonist, i ultimately chose Settler growth as the bonus for that idea for the gameplay reasons you mentioned.
I don't think Portugal shouldn't have no bonuses to colonizing
Yes, of course they should have colonization bonuses, that's what left their mark in history.
And to be fair, Castille does get superior colonial ideas (+20 settlers and +1 Colonist).
The main reason why Portugal overperforms in relation to Castile in the colonization game seems to be because Portugal almost exclusively picks Exploration and Expansion as their first two idea groups (While Castille picks a military group for their second pick and only goes expansion in their 3th or 4th).

Analising their Historical behaviours in the 1490's - 1510's (roughly the time between when you pick your second idea up untill you pick your third), Castile was far more busy colonizing the Caribbean, while Portugal was asserting Naval dominance over the indian ocean and conquering dozens of posts in India, Arabia and Indonesia.

So Castile should be the one going Exploration->Expansion, while Portugal should be going Exploration->Quality/Naval

I was suggesting the start with -10% Shock Damage Received to represent them holding out against larger armies,
Thing is, -10% Shock Damage recieved doesn't cut it when those larger armies also come from Castile and their +15% Morale traditions, France and their +20% Morale as a second idea. Or Spain and their absolutely broken Prussia-Tier traditions.

Which is why if you want to be able to hold out against larger equally sized Castilian armies, you need at least -20% shock received.

but shock becomes useless eventually so I proposed +10% Fire Damage as a last idea or ambition that way they still have something.
Shock becoming useless eventually, is exactly why i believe a very high shock bonus in their traditions is not overpowered on the long run.

Its tricky to assess Portuguese "quality" in battlefield in the second half of the game because they almost exclusively fought alongside an ally (usually Brittain) so one cannot give them all the credit (or blame) for the battles. So i will give them benefit of doubt and say "they were no better or worse than their European neighbors"

However, up until 18th century they did prove themselves in battlefield to be able to defeat larger Spanish armies (impossible in game) so if i was giving them a second military idea, i still wouldn't give it as a last one, but as a second/third one.
 
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About Portuguese Army Napoleonic Wars.

"They first saw action in May of 1809, only a few months after Beresford’s arrival. At this early point, they failed to impress Wellesley. He grumbled, “The men are very bad; the officers worse than anything I have ever seen.” The troops were sent back to camp for further months of intense training. By early 1810 Wellesley, now entitled The Duke of Wellington, felt the Portuguese were starting to become an effective force and were ready for minor operations.

Later that year at the Battle of Busaco in September, the British impression of the Portuguese soldier began to change for the better. Beresford’s new line battalions performed steadily and played an important part in this victory. The élan of the Caçadores was particularly impressive. One British observer noted, “Whenever the Caçadores got a successful shot, they laughed uproariously as if skirmishing were a great source of amusement to them.”

By 1811, Wellington was speaking of the Portuguese troops as being able to manoeuvre as well under fire as British soldiers did. At Albuera that year, a Portuguese brigade in line formation and under artillery fire repulsed a charge by four regiments of heavy French cavalry without having had time to form square. That sort of thing just did not happen very often in the Napoleonic era.

Over the next few years and across hundreds of campaign miles, the Portuguese reputation only continued to grow. At the time of Battle of Vitoria in June of 1813, they were arguably as effective as the British soldiers. Even the ferocious General Thomas Picton, who did not suffer fools gladly, wrote, “there was no difference between the British and Portuguese troops, they were equal in their exertions and deserving an equal portion of laurel.” Wellington began calling the Portuguese “the fighting cocks of the army.” He was referring to roosters, of course.

Although they never lost their reputation for poor hygiene, the Portuguese soldiers were particularly good at weathering the hard-life of campaigning. One British observer writing at about the same time as Picton claimed, “The Portuguese regiments, who behaved in the field as well as any British did, or could, are on the march, though smaller animals, most superior. They were cheerful, orderly, and steady. The English troops were fagged, half tipsy, weak, disorderly and unsoldierlike; yet the Portuguese suffer greater real hardships.”

This is a remarkable comment. Keep in mind that the British Army was an exceptionally-tough force. Its formidableness was limited only by its small size, yet man-for-man it was one of the best (if not the best) in Europe. Yet here we have a British writer arguing that the Portuguese soldier could perform on the battlefield as well as a British soldier and was even better on the march!

Later at the siege of San Sebastian, one of the last major actions in Spain, Portuguese troops again performed astonishingly well. British Officer George Hennell, wrote “It is impossible for troops to have behaved better than the Portuguese did…They were up to the middle in water, grape…and musketry mowing down full half of the first regiment that advanced, and yet they did not hurry or spread, but marched regularly to the breech…to the admiration of all spectators. One must wonder if perhaps Portuguese troops by late 1813 might not have been the finest regular (i.e. non-Guard) line and light infantry in the world. When the war finally ended in April of 1814 with actions at Toulouse in France, about a third of Wellington’s force was still comprised of his loyal and fierce Portuguese soldiers.

Perhaps one of the greatest and most lasting testimonials to the skill and fortitude of the Portuguese Army and Beresford’s success came after the Peninsular War had ended. In the late spring of 1815, Wellington once again found himself facing hostile French forces, only now he was in the cold, rainy fields of northern Europe far from familiar Portugal. The Iron Duke immediately made a request for 12,000 to 14,000 Portuguese troops to aid him in the impending fight. When asked who should take command of the Anglo-Allied Army in event of his death in the upcoming campaign, Wellington recommended Beresford.

In the end, the French Emperor moved too fast to allow such a transfer before the Battle of Waterloo, but it speaks volumes that Wellington tried once again to call on the brave and bloodied Portuguese Army and its great reformer."
 

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About Portuguese Army Napoleonic Wars.

"They first saw action in May of 1809, only a few months after Beresford’s arrival. At this early point, they failed to impress Wellesley. He grumbled, “The men are very bad; the officers worse than anything I have ever seen.” The troops were sent back to camp for further months of intense training. By early 1810 Wellesley, now entitled The Duke of Wellington, felt the Portuguese were starting to become an effective force and were ready for minor operations.

Later that year at the Battle of Busaco in September, the British impression of the Portuguese soldier began to change for the better. Beresford’s new line battalions performed steadily and played an important part in this victory. The élan of the Caçadores was particularly impressive. One British observer noted, “Whenever the Caçadores got a successful shot, they laughed uproariously as if skirmishing were a great source of amusement to them.”

By 1811, Wellington was speaking of the Portuguese troops as being able to manoeuvre as well under fire as British soldiers did. At Albuera that year, a Portuguese brigade in line formation and under artillery fire repulsed a charge by four regiments of heavy French cavalry without having had time to form square. That sort of thing just did not happen very often in the Napoleonic era.

Over the next few years and across hundreds of campaign miles, the Portuguese reputation only continued to grow. At the time of Battle of Vitoria in June of 1813, they were arguably as effective as the British soldiers. Even the ferocious General Thomas Picton, who did not suffer fools gladly, wrote, “there was no difference between the British and Portuguese troops, they were equal in their exertions and deserving an equal portion of laurel.” Wellington began calling the Portuguese “the fighting cocks of the army.” He was referring to roosters, of course.

Although they never lost their reputation for poor hygiene, the Portuguese soldiers were particularly good at weathering the hard-life of campaigning. One British observer writing at about the same time as Picton claimed, “The Portuguese regiments, who behaved in the field as well as any British did, or could, are on the march, though smaller animals, most superior. They were cheerful, orderly, and steady. The English troops were fagged, half tipsy, weak, disorderly and unsoldierlike; yet the Portuguese suffer greater real hardships.”

This is a remarkable comment. Keep in mind that the British Army was an exceptionally-tough force. Its formidableness was limited only by its small size, yet man-for-man it was one of the best (if not the best) in Europe. Yet here we have a British writer arguing that the Portuguese soldier could perform on the battlefield as well as a British soldier and was even better on the march!

Later at the siege of San Sebastian, one of the last major actions in Spain, Portuguese troops again performed astonishingly well. British Officer George Hennell, wrote “It is impossible for troops to have behaved better than the Portuguese did…They were up to the middle in water, grape…and musketry mowing down full half of the first regiment that advanced, and yet they did not hurry or spread, but marched regularly to the breech…to the admiration of all spectators. One must wonder if perhaps Portuguese troops by late 1813 might not have been the finest regular (i.e. non-Guard) line and light infantry in the world. When the war finally ended in April of 1814 with actions at Toulouse in France, about a third of Wellington’s force was still comprised of his loyal and fierce Portuguese soldiers.

Perhaps one of the greatest and most lasting testimonials to the skill and fortitude of the Portuguese Army and Beresford’s success came after the Peninsular War had ended. In the late spring of 1815, Wellington once again found himself facing hostile French forces, only now he was in the cold, rainy fields of northern Europe far from familiar Portugal. The Iron Duke immediately made a request for 12,000 to 14,000 Portuguese troops to aid him in the impending fight. When asked who should take command of the Anglo-Allied Army in event of his death in the upcoming campaign, Wellington recommended Beresford.

In the end, the French Emperor moved too fast to allow such a transfer before the Battle of Waterloo, but it speaks volumes that Wellington tried once again to call on the brave and bloodied Portuguese Army and its great reformer."

With that being said, what bonuses would you give Portugal?
 

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I agree.
Although i said "The Bandeirantes" are best represented as a Colonist, i ultimately chose Settler growth as the bonus for that idea for the gameplay reasons you mentioned.

Yes, of course they should have colonization bonuses, that's what left their mark in history.
And to be fair, Castille does get superior colonial ideas (+20 settlers and +1 Colonist).
The main reason why Portugal overperforms in relation to Castile in the colonization game seems to be because Portugal almost exclusively picks Exploration and Expansion as their first two idea groups (While Castille picks a military group for their second pick and only goes expansion in their 3th or 4th).

Analising their Historical behaviours in the 1490's - 1510's (roughly the time between when you pick your second idea up untill you pick your third), Castile was far more busy colonizing the Caribbean, while Portugal was asserting Naval dominance over the indian ocean and conquering dozens of posts in India, Arabia and Indonesia.

So Castile should be the one going Exploration->Expansion, while Portugal should be going Exploration->Quality/Naval


Thing is, -10% Shock Damage recieved doesn't cut it when those larger armies also come from Castile and their +15% Morale traditions, France and their +20% Morale as a second idea. Or Spain and their absolutely broken Prussia-Tier traditions.

Which is why if you want to be able to hold out against larger equally sized Castilian armies, you need at least -20% shock received.


Shock becoming useless eventually, is exactly why i believe a very high shock bonus in their traditions is not overpowered on the long run.

Its tricky to assess Portuguese "quality" in battlefield in the second half of the game because they almost exclusively fought alongside an ally (usually Brittain) so one cannot give them all the credit (or blame) for the battles. So i will give them benefit of doubt and say "they were no better or worse than their European neighbors"

However, up until 18th century they did prove themselves in battlefield to be able to defeat larger Spanish armies (impossible in game) so if i was giving them a second military idea, i still wouldn't give it as a last one, but as a second/third one.

Yes Portugal shouldn't be grabbing Expansion group I agree. -20% Shock Damage Received works with me, though I'd like to make sure it's balanced first. I still would like to see some type of late bonus to Portuguese military, I think the Fire Damage Received would work well, it doesn't buff the Portuguese troops, just make others weaker and Portugal able to hold out in a war longer or take less casualties. We could maybe do a Siege Ability earlier on in the set to show them conquering small trading outposts around the globe? I don't know how fast their armies could move but there's always Movement Speed too. Ideally, I'd like for Paradox to stop just throwing out the same generic Discipline and Morale of Armies bonuses, everyone shouldn't have the same bonuses.