1.3.x = least fun to play version of the game. Please make the game more FUN!!

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mcmanusaur

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You can keep trying to change the scope of my point all you like, you made a false claim and I called you on it. The fact of the matter is if you chose not to use an option that is added, the game is identical because without that option the games are identical.
Uh, nope... you're just refusing to admit a self-evident truth. Changing the rules of the game changes the game, regardless of whether those rules come into play, because the knowledge of those rules affects strategy. All your "point" does is discount the existence of strategy in EU4.
 

Lord Finnish

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That is alarming. I do hope PI will try to bring the fun back into it for those who feel it has become unfun.

Is it safe to say that the coalition dynamic is the main thing that has made it unfun for you?
Coalitions are annoying, but it's not the coalition feature itself but rather perhaps the AE orgy that has been going on since 1.2. It makes the game too restrictive. Same reason why I don't like Victoria 2, the map is full of options but then you just hit a wall when GPs sphere all your enemies and no one ever joins wars on your side. Then you watch the paint dry until 1880s when the game starts opening up again. Then soon after it's 1935 and game over.
It's hard for me to say what specifically makes me dislike EU4. I want to like it but I just can't. I played some 80 hours of it and now I can't even start the game. CK2 does everything so much better.
 

G_Morgan

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Coalitions are annoying, but it's not the coalition feature itself but rather perhaps the AE orgy that has been going on since 1.2. It makes the game too restrictive. Same reason why I don't like Victoria 2, the map is full of options but then you just hit a wall when GPs sphere all your enemies and no one ever joins wars on your side. Then you watch the paint dry until 1880s when the game starts opening up again. Then soon after it's 1935 and game over.
It's hard for me to say what specifically makes me dislike EU4. I want to like it but I just can't. I played some 80 hours of it and now I can't even start the game. CK2 does everything so much better.

The problem is pretty straight forward. The way the game works forces you to blob in a very specific manner. Most of us play with house rules that make WC hard anyway. With the current mechanics it is pointless doing that.

The problem is what it has been since this stuff was first patched to do this. There are no longer any options in this game. Every person trying to blob at all now is abusing the mechanics as hard as they can and this is not a fun way to play.

That and completely arbitrary restrictions on capital moves. I can't move my capital from Nicomedia to Constantinople? Somebody inform Constantine.
 

Anjwalker

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Besides the not being able to individually crush the nations in coalitions, that game mechanic is fine. It needs to exist; people fail to realise coalitions were the life blood of wars in this era historically. Italy especially was always being thought over in coalitions that shifted and changes with the wind. The Pope would form a coalition because Venice was to powerful, but then France would begin encroaching so he'd turn around and make another coalition against them instead etc.

AE is fine, absolutely. All we need is a bit more to do while we wait for it to cool down. As I've said before in this thread, I'd love to see trade become more dynamic. For example if you own multiple trade centers, you should be able to for example demolish one or convert its provinces to the other trade zone. Maybe add a trade deal diplomatic option, that would give you higher trade power in the trade centers of that nation; or if you're really buddy-buddy with a smaller nation you could request they expel your rivals merchants. This could tie into an expansion of the diplomacy. Perhaps you could discredit your rivals in foreign nations at the cost of diplomatic power if they're getting uncomfortably friendly? I'm sure others have more ideas.

Colonising could become more interesting; perhaps they could add unique events where natives don't just outright invade your colony all the time but instead sabotage it. Events like "natives steal the livestock" and it'd lower your settlers arrival rate temporarily, 'plague kills the natives' (self explanatory and quite realistic considering what happened when the europeans reached the americas) or 'natives tribes ally against you' and then the natives have a numbers boost when trying to fight you. Just stuff that makes colonising more than 'click the send colonist button and wait'. These events wouldn't have to be common, but then suddenly they might pop up and you have more of a challenge in your colonies.
 

unmerged(798670)

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The whole "allowing easier WC doesn't affect those not interested in WC because no one is forcing you to do it" line of argument just isn't substantive.
This is the argument you made that is demonstrably false, I explicitly pointed out why it is false. If you would like me to write it out in proof notation I can but I do not see that being terribly important to you, and is unrelated to the tangents you continually bring up in an attempt to establish credibility.

Rules that you do not use do not come into play, because they are never used by the player by choice, do not affect the game because they effectively do not exist. The point you are arguing against assumes that the player isn't interested in using these rules, then goes on to say if the rules are changed in a way that you as the player can entirely ignore without changing the game experience, the game experience doesn't change.

There is no self-evident truth that proves an object is different than itself.
 

Laurwin

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But a strategy game is more than a buffet restaurant where you pick and choose what you want. Every mechanical component of EU is interconnected and altering it will change all of the game theory decisions that make up EU4's strategic gameplay experience.

Hmm perhaps game isn't a buffet restaurant, but in both cases you have paying customers do you not? As far as I understood pdox business model with EU4 is counting upon DLC sales also, so it's not like they would specifically want to alienate customer base too much?

I don't have to play this game, I can play EU3 if I like it more than EU4 (perhaps I think it is a better game, Divine Wind expansion EU3, or I have more fun in that game, it was a fun game for me mostly).
Or I could play civ5 etc...

But then again admittedly, there is also the difficulty setting that can be adjusted even in pdox games. But still the coalition and diplomacy and alliance features of EU4, are still in dire need of improvement for the game to become enjoyable IMO...

I mean, seriously, at least in Vicky 2 you were always managing your economy - so there was an active aspect of gameplay to engage in, so it's not like there was nothing to do in the more peaceful times... There's just too much waiting and boredom IMO, in EU4.
Or failing that you just get into these massive coalition wars or whatever.
 

Eyestabber

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But staring at the screen, from a narrative point of view, is pretty fun. Watch me:

"King Builder Mcpeaceful III inherited the throne from his father, the late King Builder Mcpeaceful II. He was haunted by his father's dying words 'son...see to it that they build a new temple in Kent'. Now, the young King knew building a Constable in London would bring in more ducats, but he had promised to uphold his father's legacy. Therefore, as soon as the month turned and King Builder Mcpeaceful III got that extra ducat...he knew he had to choose between money and glory. Right there and then, only three months as King and he was about to choose whether history would remember him as a greedy, insensible, Constable builder OR as a pious and faithful Temple builder. It wasn't an easy choice, but our brave Builder Mcpeaceful III KNEW being King wasn't about making easy choices."
 

pgroves

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For me version 1.3.2 is the most fun version of the game to play, I like the restrictions it places on over-blobing etc., and the combat now feels about right
 

mcmanusaur

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This is the argument you made that is demonstrably false, I explicitly pointed out why it is false. If you would like me to write it out in proof notation I can but I do not see that being terribly important to you, and is unrelated to the tangents you continually bring up in an attempt to establish credibility.
Please, do write out a proof, because I'm not sure how you can be so self-assured in your completely bankrupt line of thinking. You haven't provided any evidence to demonstrate that my argument has false, you have simply repeated a claim that contradicts my argument without substantiating that claim. The only thing you pointed out is that you can utilize tautologies.

Rules that you do not use do not come into play, because they are never used by the player by choice, do not affect the game because they effectively do not exist. The point you are arguing against assumes that the player isn't interested in using these rules, then goes on to say if the rules are changed in a way that you as the player can entirely ignore without changing the game experience, the game experience doesn't change.
Rules that don't happen to come into play still exist because they can alter the viability/optimality of the rest of the strategic decisions available to the player. Coalitions can exist as rules, and I can do everything possible to avoid them while achieving my goals such that they never come into play, but the fact that they don't come into play doesn't mean they're not affecting my gameplay. I approach the game differently than I would if they didn't exist because I have to actively make changes to my play style to avoid them. You're asking a lot of players who approach this game as an affair of optimization (that doesn't include me, but still) to give up their play style and play sub-optimally to avoid WC if you make it significantly easier.


There is no self-evident truth that proves an object is different than itself.
We're not talking about objects, we're talking about game theory. You're acting like what you're suggesting is a completely new feature, when it's really a re-balance of many existing features, and as such it affects all players.
 

mcmanusaur

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But staring at the screen, from a narrative point of view, is pretty fun. Watch me:

"King Builder Mcpeaceful III inherited the throne from his father, the late King Builder Mcpeaceful II. He was haunted by his father's dying words 'son...see to it that they build a new temple in Kent'. Now, the young King knew building a Constable in London would bring in more ducats, but he had promised to uphold his father's legacy. Therefore, as soon as the month turned and King Builder Mcpeaceful III got that extra ducat...he knew he had to choose between money and glory. Right there and then, only three months as King and he was about to choose whether history would remember him as a greedy, insensible, Constable builder OR as a pious and faithful Temple builder. It wasn't an easy choice, but our brave Builder Mcpeaceful III KNEW being King wasn't about making easy choices."

I'm curious as to what your point is.
 

WeissRaben

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But staring at the screen, from a narrative point of view, is pretty fun. Watch me:

"King Builder Mcpeaceful III inherited the throne from his father, the late King Builder Mcpeaceful II. He was haunted by his father's dying words 'son...see to it that they build a new temple in Kent'. Now, the young King knew building a Constable in London would bring in more ducats, but he had promised to uphold his father's legacy. Therefore, as soon as the month turned and King Builder Mcpeaceful III got that extra ducat...he knew he had to choose between money and glory. Right there and then, only three months as King and he was about to choose whether history would remember him as a greedy, insensible, Constable builder OR as a pious and faithful Temple builder. It wasn't an easy choice, but our brave Builder Mcpeaceful III KNEW being King wasn't about making easy choices."

"Paint drying fascinated him. He could have sit there for hours - days, even! - watching the smallest changes happen with the constant calm and patience only nature could muster. The water that had held the pigment fluid and cohesive, fundamental ingredient in the mysterious recipe of colours, was now abandoned. Ever so slowly, of course: the hue would change in infinitesimal fractions every minute, as the precious liquid, his work now completed, evaporated. Could he touch it? Could he try and see for himself the miracle that was happening in front of his eyes? But no: it would have ruined the delicate balance of the wall, interfered in the battle against time that saw humidity steadily recede. He could not do that, as every meaning would then have been lost; every hint of natural desiccation, gone. And so he just sat, watching paint dry."

Being able of writing about something doesn't make the subject, per se, interesting.
 

Comes Imperii

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To me it seems like a very funny way of describing an otherwise very tedious reality of the game: the lack of meaningful options in the game, especially during peacetime. Good work Eyestabber for your subtleties!
 

mcmanusaur

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Okay, that's all fine and well, but... is it related to the discussion this thread? Should there be a separate thread? I'm not trying to thread police, just trying to figure out how to put the post in context. I'm also not arguing that many of the "decisions" in the game amount to tedium.
 

Eyestabber

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To me it seems like a very funny way of describing an otherwise very tedious reality of the game: the lack of meaningful options in the game, especially during peacetime. Good work Eyestabber for your subtleties!

Thank you kind sir. Just to make things clear to those who failed to see the point of my little tale: Europa Universalis IV has very little to do besides more warfare. Colonization? Well, it's pretty fun planning a colonial empire, but as soon as you send a colonist away, you are now running down the clock. Trade is also a cool aspect of the game, but it's all about sending a merchant + some ships and checking every once in a while to see if they weren't better spent elsewhere. Again, click and wait. Diplomacy? Open a country's panel, see if he would ever agree to whatever you intend to propose, send a diplo to improve relations, wait wait wait, recall, propose, move on. Building stuff is the most "active" the game gets during peace time and your options are pretty limited, to be honest. A lot of building options just aren't cost-effective or MP-effective, which AGAIN makes you watch the clock run.

Warfare, on the other hand, is pretty cool. The AI is pretty clever (a lot more than other strategy games anyway), you have a ton of options on how to deal with every situation, the combat system is incredibly deep and let's not forget that the soundtrack is absolutely AWESOME. And then one looks at the forums for a staggering realization: people want the best part of the game to be as limited and unrewarding as possible. Cuz, you know, watching the clock run down can be fun too. And you are playing it wrong. TOTAL WAR NEWBZ!
 

Anthropoid

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I wish I had the time to do a sort of "Lets play" to show (a) how active I am between wars; (b) how easy it is to know when to turn the speed up to max and minimize the tedium during those times when I'm not active between wars.

I can agree that incorporating a bit more of the CK2 'court life' dimensions would be good and reduce the feeling of 'downtime' b/w wars. Nonetheless, I often find myself pausing the game while NOT at war, and on slowest speed, because there is too much to process and deal with.

EU4 is not StarCraft. Sorry.
 

mcmanusaur

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Just to make things clear to those who failed to see the point of my little tale
You generally have to put such things in context before you can expect others to understand your point.
Europa Universalis IV has very little to do besides more warfare. Colonization? Well, it's pretty fun planning a colonial empire, but as soon as you send a colonist away, you are now running down the clock. Trade is also a cool aspect of the game, but it's all about sending a merchant + some ships and checking every once in a while to see if they weren't better spent elsewhere. Again, click and wait. Diplomacy? Open a country's panel, see if he would ever agree to whatever you intend to propose, send a diplo to improve relations, wait wait wait, recall, propose, move on. Building stuff is the most "active" the game gets during peace time and your options are pretty limited, to be honest. A lot of building options just aren't cost-effective or MP-effective, which AGAIN makes you watch the clock run.
This is a non sequitur. The fact that you can reduce non-warfare aspects of EU to tedium by writing about them in a certain way doesn't say anything about the "true nature" of the game. Certainly I could write the same kind of excerpt about the not-so-exceptional narrative that warfare in EU4 produces if I wanted to do so, complete with references to the "destination mini-game" (as I call it, when you game an enemy army into combat by switching your destinations without actually moving between provinces) and the combat phase dice rolls. None of those mechanics produce terribly exciting narrative in and of themselves; it's all about the imaginative stuff you project upon the game's (all things considered) bare-bones systems, and that holds true for both war and peace.
Warfare, on the other hand, is pretty cool. The AI is pretty clever (a lot more than other strategy games anyway), you have a ton of options on how to deal with every situation, the combat system is incredibly deep and let's not forget that the soundtrack is absolutely AWESOME. And then one looks at the forums for a staggering realization: people want the best part of the game to be as limited and unrewarding as possible. Cuz, you know, watching the clock run down can be fun too. And you are playing it wrong. TOTAL WAR NEWBZ!
Uh... no? You have no real control of the composition of your army beyond infantry/cavalry/artillery, and the battle system essentially has zero interactivity; all that matters are discipline and morale coefficients along with a bit of randomness. Oh, and who could forget the dreadful arbitrary (read: narrative-destroying) limits of the warscore system. Let's be honest here, the combat system isn't half as deep as you present it to be, and warfare is hardly the AI's strong point. You obviously just have a personal predisposition toward enjoying warfare more than the rest of the game, which is fine but others might not share your view, and that doesn't make warfare the best part of the game.
 
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Roelath

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I wish I had the time to do a sort of "Lets play" to show (a) how active I am between wars; (b) how easy it is to know when to turn the speed up to max and minimize the tedium during those times when I'm not active between wars.

I can agree that incorporating a bit more of the CK2 'court life' dimensions would be good and reduce the feeling of 'downtime' b/w wars. Nonetheless, I often find myself pausing the game while NOT at war, and on slowest speed, because there is too much to process and deal with.

EU4 is not StarCraft. Sorry.

Sometimes a lot of events happen at once... everyone has been there. Your point expresses the area which players hate the most. Waiting for something to happen... It feels similar to CKII as a Christian count as you start the game but, give or take a few years and you're busy often. In EUIV it's the same old for the most part.

1. Who can I invade? Rather who can I invade to release a vassal in order to feed them cores so I'm not dealing with rebels, OE, and AE for the next decade or two?
2. Events... every few months.. yawn. Oh wait don't forget about the moments that someone voted for your possible Cardinal!
3. Colonization! Time to explore! Go go go Colonist! Alright I'll dispatch 4-5k soldiers at that colony annnddd forget about it until it completes.
 

unmerged(798670)

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Please, do write out a proof

You're acting like what you're suggesting is a completely new feature

Let X represent the complete game as it is now, and let Y represent a new feature to the game. let Y=0 represent the new feature altering absolutely no other features in the original game whatsoever.

X+Y is the new composite game, Whenever Y is 0, X+Y = X. If the player has the ability to set Y= 0, and the player wants Y=0, then they will always have X.

Coalitions are not a feature that can be ignored completely without changing the game and as such are not an applicable example. I am not asking anyone to play suboptimally.
The original point is that you are arguing against is that there can exist a feature that people who WANT to play without (who desire to play suboptimally as you put it) can play without it and have the current game be entirely unaffected by it. As you put it, it is tautologically true that if a feature exists that you can ignore completely without altering the game, you can experience the exact same game you currently do.

I did not propose a feature recently in this conversation, although I have proposed several that qualify as an entirely ignorable feature (such as backwards version access). Another option would be a game start option to turn on the difficulties you currently desire, A third category would be player only options such as the PU CB being returned to its original state in single player-I don't actually like this last idea, but since the AI doesn't use it, it doesn't alter the game in any way unless you chose to use it so it qualifies.

Obviously many suggestions don't qualify as something that is completely ignorable, but if your goal is only to have the current exact experience and you don't want anything new, you are in luck, just make a backup of the current copy and laugh at the misfortune of anyone who wants an older version.
 

mcmanusaur

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Let X represent the complete game as it is now, and let Y represent a new feature to the game. let Y=0 represent the new feature altering absolutely no other features in the original game whatsoever.

X+Y is the new composite game, Whenever Y is 0, X+Y = X. If the player has the ability to set Y= 0, and the player wants Y=0, then they will always have X.
Now, please explain how making WC easier constitutes adding a feature, and doesn't entail re-balancing the game's existing features.

I did not propose a feature recently in this conversation, although I have proposed several that qualify as an entirely ignorable feature (such as backwards version access). Another option would be a game start option to turn on the difficulties you currently desire, A third category would be player only options such as the PU CB being returned to its original state in single player-I don't actually like this last idea, but since the AI doesn't use it, it doesn't alter the game in any way unless you chose to use it so it qualifies.
So what we're really talking about here is adding meta-game options (not game features) then. Well, that's a different thing entirely, and I'm all for more options for customizing what the game's rules will be before the game starts. However, I maintain that adding features to the game itself necessarily changes all the strategic characteristics of the game.
 

unmerged(798670)

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Now, please explain how making WC easier constitutes adding a feature, and doesn't entail re-balancing the game's existing features.
Well the cute example is making vassals and personal unions count as "Conquered." No mechanics or numbers changed except for the addition of several new possible options if you are attempting a WC, any non-WC goal or strategy works exactly as it did before this change.

It is easy enough to make features that only apply when you are sufficiently large, such as a CB for global domination requiring a minimum province count arbitrarily high say 600 after the year 1750 that declares war on everyone left and victory results in complete global assimilation, if the CB can literally only be used for an all or nothing global domination, it only affects people who are trying for a WC (and is exceedingly unlikely to even be seen by anyone who is not).

If you extend the definition slightly you can make any number of changes to how excessively large blobs behave with an extremely small likelihood of affecting anyone who does not want to blob as well. This is why I personally like the idea of making expanding in the earlygame more difficult and expanding in the lategame (assuming you blobbed like a mofo) easier, it allows more options and potential for challenge while minimizing the unenjoyable features commonly described by both WC and WC-hating players but that is just a preference.
 
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