1.3 Ability Theorycrafting (post-stream)

[Amechwarrior]

Worth saying that Bulwark never gave Entrenched: it only gave Guarded. You needed to Brace to do both.

My gut feel is that the current skill pass has the slightly ironic side-effect of making Bulwark arguably even *more* essential. The flip side to that is now everyone gets to learn the tactical fun of punch/counterpunch we old-guard evasionistas got so good at. (Hearing Kiva talk about how people were "learning" that wide open spaces were deathtraps got a laugh out of me: I've been terrified of those since learning about their dangers the hard way in my first campaign )

One fairly nice side-effect is that Sure Footing/Bulwark actually has a clear synergy, making Outrider/Brawler pilots outstanding tanks. I struggled to get Outriders to work for me in Vanilla, but they're clearly a strong build with the numbers as written.

As for those times when we're stuck having to trade between them, by the numbers Bulwark is the better defence. Yes, lunar missions don't have cover, but they *do* have plenty of craters and ridges and excellent firing lines which from my experience tends to mean controlling fire is both slightly easier than in other biomes. As long as you're doing that, you won't be too terribly disadvantaged by losing out on an evasive pip, especially as the OpFor is also slightly more fragile in those contexts and you still have the option of using Vigilance.

That said, I've evasion tanked multiple ironman campaigns using numbers that aren't far off from what we'll get with 1.3 so it's clearly still a viable strategy, even if it's not strictly speaking as efficient.

Can you check that for me on the stock 1.2? Since backer beta Bulwark gave both, but Entrenchment was never listed in the text about Bulwark. I'm testing some custom mod crap in the 1.2 ability beta and don't want to wipe everything by reverting back to stock, but I'm fairly sure if you Bulwark up in 1.2 and before you would trigger both Guarded and Entrenchment. Let me know if I'm wrong about it.

 

[scJazz]

Can you check that for me on the stock 1.2? Since backer beta Bulwark gave both, but Entrenchment was never listed in the text about Bulwark. I'm testing some custom mod crap in the 1.2 ability beta and don't want to wipe everything by reverting back to stock, but I'm fairly sure if you Bulwark up in 1.2 and before you would trigger both Guarded and Entrenchment. Let me know if I'm wrong about it.

You do gain entrenched.

 

[ThatGuyMontag]

You do gain entrenched.

Huh, learn something every day. Bulwark not gaining Entrenched actually made a lot of sense, hence why I just assumed and never bother checking after the text left it out.

 

[Amechwarrior]

You do gain entrenched.

I had someone on the discords check as well, same result that 1.2 Bulwark does grant Entrenched.

 

[scJazz]

I had someone on the discords check as well, same result that 1.2 Bulwark does grant Entrenched.

I was going to answer you in the discords as well but figured... you probably got the message already.

 

[scJazz]

The number one thing not addressed, repeatedly, is what does this do to the AI?
Anyone want to take repeated shots from a Black Knight with Coolant Vent?
We can build amazingly wonderful mech variants... but what do the changes imply for the AI's stocks?

 

[Amechwarrior]

The number one thing not addressed, repeatedly, is what does this do to the AI?
Anyone want to take repeated shots from a Black Knight with Coolant Vent?
We can build amazingly wonderful mech variants... but what do the changes imply for the AI's stocks?

I'd hope they redo a lot of the old ability beta variables. The AI doesn't need to consider how many HP the pilot has remaining anymore and the Bulwark stuff from 1.0-1.2 would need to be changed. I'd change it to a "If Bulwark, then increase weights to be in cover x3" or something like that. Maybe even up the odds to brace, but that could easily make the AI too defensive.

As for Sure Footed, the ability beta variable was already just adding a small boost to just walking. I'd keep that but also boost the weights to moving farther to reach those high levels of evasion.

 

[Camicon Dachass]

I'd hope they redo a lot of the old ability beta variables. The AI doesn't need to consider how many HP the pilot has remaining anymore and the Bulwark stuff from 1.0-1.2 would need to be changed. I'd change it to a "If Bulwark, then increase weights to be in cover x3" or something like that. Maybe even up the odds to brace, but that could easily make the AI too defensive.

As for Sure Footed, the ability beta variable was already just adding a small boost to just walking. I'd keep that but also boost the weights to moving farther to reach those high levels of evasion.

Can't boost the walking weight too much, or you could end up with the AI trading Cover for a single evasive pip.

 

[Amechwarrior]

Can't boost the walking weight too much, or you could end up with the AI trading Cover for a single evasive pip.

The ability beta we have sets it to 0.1, relatively minor but not so small as to be totally ignored. Most variables are between +/- 0.1 to 0.7 with a few at 1.0 or higher

 

[SpectralThundr]

I've never understood the evasion skill being useless argument to begin with. It hasn't been useless at all for me at any point, early, mid, end of campaign, even in late all assault mech battles. For if you're constantly getting 4+ evasion every single turn, the AI is generally having to pick off those evasion ticks before it can really get good shots in, by that time they're generally close to death. Granted this may be totally different on higher difficulties, I have no idea as I generally stick to just normal/non ironman.

 

[ThatGuyMontag]

I've never understood the evasion skill being useless argument to begin with. It hasn't been useless at all for me at any point, early, mid, end of campaign, even in late all assault mech battles. For if you're constantly getting 4+ evasion every single turn, the AI is generally having to pick off those evasion ticks before it can really get good shots in, by that time they're generally close to death. Granted this may be totally different on higher difficulties, I have no idea as I generally stick to just normal/non ironman.

Mostly people have been comparing it to Bulwark and saying it's "useless" by comparison. The maths doesn't support that claim in theory (5 evasion and cover is basically equivalent to Bulwark over a turn, except in cases when you're being overwhelmed with fire, and it's easily doable with 4/6/4 mechs) and I'm not the only person who mostly uses evasion to tank so in practice it hasn't proven useless either.

Best bet as to why people have gone that way: it's psychological. Bulwark *feels* safer because the randomness is less obvious. Both are however perfectly viable strategies so it's not like it's a problem if people choose one or the other, I just take issue with the people flat-out saying evasion is useless because we've had a string of bad metas messing around with strategy discussions on the board pretty much since day 1.

But all of that is now officially moot because now everybody *has* to play like I have since day one. Ironically, it also means that after all this time using and defending Evasive Move I will finally be forced to have Bulwark as my main defensive skill. Seriously did not see that coming

 

[Camicon Dachass]

Mostly people have been comparing it to Bulwark and saying it's "useless" by comparison. The maths doesn't support that claim in theory (5 evasion and cover is basically equivalent to Bulwark over a turn, except in cases when you're being overwhelmed with fire, and it's easily doable with 4/6/4 mechs) and I'm not the only person who mostly uses evasion to tank so in practice it hasn't proven useless either.

Best bet as to why people have gone that way: it's psychological. Bulwark *feels* safer because the randomness is less obvious. Both are however perfectly viable strategies so it's not like it's a problem if people choose one or the other, I just take issue with the people flat-out saying evasion is useless because we've had a string of bad metas messing around with strategy discussions on the board pretty much since day 1.

But all of that is now officially moot because now everybody *has* to play like I have since day one. Ironically, it also means that after all this time using and defending Evasive Move I will finally be forced to have Bulwark as my main defensive skill. Seriously did not see that coming

The damage reduction that Bulwark provides doesn't just feel safer, it actually evens out your damage spread, makes armor breaches less likely.

And with these changes, Jump capable 'Mechs are going to be more powerful than ever. Right now I can only get a 25% cover bonus if I jump and shoot. But soon, if I have a pilot with Bulwark, I can build a stack of evasion pips, plus get a 40% damage reduction in cover, and still shoot, all without spending any Morale.

 

[SpectralThundr]

Mostly people have been comparing it to Bulwark and saying it's "useless" by comparison. The maths doesn't support that claim in theory (5 evasion and cover is basically equivalent to Bulwark over a turn, except in cases when you're being overwhelmed with fire, and it's easily doable with 4/6/4 mechs) and I'm not the only person who mostly uses evasion to tank so in practice it hasn't proven useless either.

Best bet as to why people have gone that way: it's psychological. Bulwark *feels* safer because the randomness is less obvious. Both are however perfectly viable strategies so it's not like it's a problem if people choose one or the other, I just take issue with the people flat-out saying evasion is useless because we've had a string of bad metas messing around with strategy discussions on the board pretty much since day 1.

But all of that is now officially moot because now everybody *has* to play like I have since day one. Ironically, it also means that after all this time using and defending Evasive Move I will finally be forced to have Bulwark as my main defensive skill. Seriously did not see that coming

Ahh ok that does make sense I guess, thank you for the reply Montag! Personally I use both Bulwark and evasion, usually myself and Glitch using evasion, Beehemoth using Bulwark, and as I progress new pilots get one or the other depending on what I have for pilots and skills at the time. I find both useful to be honest. I'm interested in playing with the revamped skills in 1.3 as I didn't play around with the beta build for those changes. 2 and a half weeks! Really looking forward to Flashpoints! I'm still trying to figure out how I've put 600 hours into Battletech so far, I am just that addicted I guess never mind that before I just moved here to Canada, I was working full time and juggling a at the time long distance relationship while still playing that much! Go figure! Nice to be with the fiance finally and while waiting to be able to work here legally, I'm thinking I'm going to play and love the hell out of the content coming down the pipe.

Battletech for me has certainly been my game of the year, really enjoy it!

 

[Antagonist85]

I'll go out on a limb here and say the meta is going to revolve around walking turrets even moreso than in the live build.

 

[stjobe]

I'll go out on a limb here and say the meta is going to revolve around walking turrets even moreso than in the live build.

If they're walking, they're not really turrets are they?

In 1.2, the best passive damage-mitigation tactic is to make sure you have the bonus from Bulwark every turn (i.e. stand still and fire), whether you were in cover or in an open field. If you absolutely had to move you'd jump and brace or used Vigilance so as to not lose Bulwark. The way Bulwark works in 1.2 gives you a strong incentive not to move (because you lose Bulwark if you do).

In 1.3, the changes to Bulwark means the incentive not to move is removed: As long as you're sticking to cover, you'll get the benefits of Bulwark. You can no longer turret in the middle of an open field like you can in 1.2. Also, the mitigation from cover is reduced by 5% (down to 20%), so it is vitally important to either have lots of evasion pips or Bulwark to get that reduction up to 40% (down 10% from 1.2). If you brace or use Vigilance in cover, you'll max out your passive damage mitigation at 60% - 20% less than in 1.2 10% more than in 1.2 (thank you @Antagonist85 for the correction).

This means that Bulwark is no longer the no-brainer choice it is in 1.2, and since you're free to move why not pick up Sure Footing to gain an extra evasion pip?

The meta is very likely to be Bulwark + Sure Footing + (Ace Pilot/Coolant Vent), which in and of itself leads to the 1.2 tendency for static trench warfare being removed; the new Bulwark gives its bonuses just by being in cover, and Sure Footing gives an extra pip anytime you move. So why not move? Moving from cover to cover only increases your defenses by giving you some evasion pips in addition to the damage mitigation from Bulwark.

 

[Antagonist85]

If you brace or use Vigilance in cover, you'll max out your passive damage mitigation at 60% - 20% less than in 1.2.

10% more than in 1.2, you mean. Cover and Bulwark don't stack in 1.2. And this means people will go for cover, hunker down and start turning on the spot.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I'll go out on a limb here and say the meta is going to revolve around walking turrets even moreso than in the live build.

Not so much "Walking Turret" as it will be "Cover Hoarding."

Of course then Lines of Intervisibility leading to those Woods or Dust Clouds (maybe even the Tropical Biome's Spore Cloads) will be critically important as the "coming to grips" with an Enemy dug into a pice of Cover will still on occassion be quite necessary.

Jump Bulwark-Bracing will still be quite useful in closing distances. Jump Cavalry Lances (or at least two-Mech Sections) will still see a fair amount of use there.

All in all, I think it will be better balanced, though I do agree with @stjobe in that Sure-footed Bulwarking will be something I look to more and more for my Lance's Maneuver Element. : )

 

[Amechwarrior]

The damage reduction that Bulwark provides doesn't just feel safer, it actually evens out your damage spread, makes armor breaches less likely.

And with these changes, Jump capable 'Mechs are going to be more powerful than ever. Right now I can only get a 25% cover bonus if I jump and shoot. But soon, if I have a pilot with Bulwark, I can build a stack of evasion pips, plus get a 40% damage reduction in cover, and still shoot, all without spending any Morale.

I think that solves the biggest problem with Bulwark. The stationary usage is replaced with high mobility on the right parts of the map. If we take a current customized 'Mech built for 1.2 Bulwark and then have to jump more often as we can't be a turret in 1.3, then we are either running hotter, quicker or firing less to conserve heat. This could be another way missions might get harder as the need to keep up both Pips and Cover will restrict our firing patterns compared to just standing still, or standing in water. There is a desert map where you drop in water and the enemy is on the shores and hills. With 1.2 Bulwark I am in a better position then the AI, with 1.3 that spawn will probably be a death trap to rush out of.

 

[stjobe]

10% more than in 1.2, you mean. Cover and Bulwark don't stack in 1.2. And this means people will go for cover, hunker down and start turning on the spot.

Correction appreciated, 10% more it is.

However I think you're wrong about the implications of that; to get those 60% you need to forego shooting (because you need to use Brace) or use a morale ability that could go towards Precision Shot instead.

Much more likely is that you'll want to pick up a few evasion pips to supplement the 40% reduction from cover + Bulwark, meaning you will not be hunkering down and turning on the spot, you will be walking/jumping around from cover to cover. And if you're already planning on moving about, the logical skill to supplement Bulwark will be Sure Footing.

I see lots of Outriders and Brawlers in the future of BATTLETECH (as opposed to Vanguards and Lancers which were my go-to skill sets in 1.2).

 

[Antagonist85]

Correction appreciated, 10% more it is.

However I think you're wrong about the implications of that; to get those 60% you need to forego shooting (because you need to use Brace) or use a morale ability that could go towards Precision Shot instead.

Much more likely is that you'll want to pick up a few evasion pips to supplement the 40% reduction from cover + Bulwark, meaning you will not be hunkering down and turning on the spot, you will be walking/jumping around from cover to cover. And if you're already planning on moving about, the logical skill to supplement Bulwark will be Sure Footing.

I see lots of Outriders and Brawlers in the future of BATTLETECH (as opposed to Vanguards and Lancers which were my go-to skill sets in 1.2).

Against AI, the meta will revolve around closing just enough that it gets triggered, hunker down and let the enemy come to you in ~80% of all cases. Of that I am absolutely certain.

Of course, a human player may choose to sensor lock and snipe - thus opening himself up for counter-sniping.