(1.3.3)Is new method for resource shortages the underlying cause of German AI problems?

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Daelyn75

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After reading all of this, it tells me that the game is in a horrible state when it comes to the AI right now. I appreciate all the insight and work you guys have done in figuring this out, and writing about it.

I look forward to the AI being greatly improved, of which I am certain will happen at some point. Let's hope it happens in 1.4.
 

Dalwin

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Came here just to post these.

View attachment 245084 View attachment 245085 View attachment 245086

Germany JUST declared war on Russia. This is what the front looks like. A handful of Divisions on the Russian front. There's more German Division in Africa then there is on the Eastern Front.... We are once again back to square one. Also German is suiciding it's Divisions in the English channel again.... This is my first game on 1.3.3., and... I just don't know..... I'm also seeing the suiciding of Navies.
I don't know why what you got there is different from what I did. In my game Germany sent 175 divisions to the Russian border and waited until they had full planning bonus before declaring. This even involved delaying the declaration for 5 weeks after the NF was finished.

The only non-graphical mod I am using is No Mans Land. You?

Are you in observer mode there or playing as one of the countries and using console commands to look around?
 

Dan1109

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After reading all of this, it tells me that the game is in a horrible state when it comes to the AI right now. I appreciate all the insight and work you guys have done in figuring this out, and writing about it.

I look forward to the AI being greatly improved, of which I am certain will happen at some point. Let's hope it happens in 1.4.
 

Gwydion5

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I know. I was talking about the weather, so to speak. All the focus has been on AI Germany, as this thread's original premise bears out. I was just saying that the winds are blowing against Germany because they have many more opportunities to screw up and get fixated on phantom needs, but that this behavior is not limited to Germany by any means.

My bad. I get what you are saying now. :)

I don't know why what you got there is different from what I did. ?

Could it be Finland joining the Axis giving Germany the opportunity for war before starting the War with USSR NF?
 

Gwydion5

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So I loaded my AI Russian save from January 1st, 1941 to do another test run, and the Soviet AI was able to do quite well against max boosted AI Germany.

20170305180349_1.jpg
20170305203509_1.jpg
20170305203736_1.jpg


I've had a sneaking suspicion that loading from a save game causes the AI to do a re-evaluation, or causes it to lose its focus / history on it's current setup, that weakens it. Is this confirmed/known? Or is it something else? Russia seemed to be doing rather well and I did tag over to Germany before tagging back to Soviets to just see what might be going on, something I normally don't do. So is loading from a save game potentially AI breaking? Or how about tag switching with human_ai enabled? Because this is how 1941 ends:

20170305210424_1.jpg


Which is the same game as before where I show Russia losing in Northern and Central Russia, just reloaded.
 

Kanjihat

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Honestly I've had suspicions about save-games breaking the AI before. I have noticed in multiple games that the game is challenging and the AI competent, until I come back to the game. Then it starts behaving strangely in ways people in this thread have demonstrated.
 

Meglok

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I seem to remember this being correct, reloading will cause the ai to evaluate the strategic situation. But I am going off memory instead of a PDS quote, which is always deadly at my age.

As to whether this is causing the glitch.... I don't know how we could confirm that. I can see how that could cause a disaster if the ai save had for example the emphasis on an AG Center drive to Moscow and reloading causes the ai to change strategic focus to AG South and Rostov au Don. Or even worse switching from Russia to Africa. The front shuffle dance would be frightening to watch.
 

Xia

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The issue I normally experience is, because I often sit through 1936-1945 in a single sitting, the AI utterly destroys itself by the end of that timeline - with 90% of divisions from all nations doing absolutely nothing (I've seen 400 division vs single digit division front lines for example where neither side - or even the massively outnumbered side on occasion - are advancing), Reloading will "restart" the AI, meaning these idiotic situations will 'reset'.

Which could also be why I experience far less Sahara expeditions than people on these threads clearly do - the AI almost never fights in North Africa unless I'm giving some pretty hefty support to the Axis for example.
 

D3po

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From my observations the AI has a total disregard for VPs in decision making. I tried a couple of runs as fascist Iran just to see if could help Germany along for a victorious Barbarossa.

As soon as I connected my front from the Caucasus and the Steppe to that of Axis Romania near Stalingrad, Germany decided to shift most of it's units into the Steppe desert. At that point, the North Eastern front was three provinces away from Moscow. Now with the bulk of it's force sitting idle or shifting between a couple of provinces in the desert, Germany had approximately 6 divisions in total up north. Maybe 1/3 of them were on the Romanian front making sure nobody had and ORG. If it wasn't for the equally silly Russia AI, which led me to conquer Russia from the Urals to the Baltic coast with around 30 divisions, it would have been a disaster.

The Russian AI didn't seem to know what to do, save the far East or save Moscow, and just kept shifting it's troops around in strategic deployment, even though it had plenty of troops (around 300 divisions) which were decently supplied.
 

SteelVolt

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What I can say at this point is that the changes to effects of resource shortages and such certainly did not make things easier for the AI, but it will need to be looked at together with some other new changes in how the AI handles production of divisions.
 

Gwydion5

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What I can say at this point is that the changes to effects of resource shortages and such certainly did not make things easier for the AI, but it will need to be looked at together with some other new changes in how the AI handles production of divisions.

Thank you for the response.
 

mathers

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What I can say at this point is that the changes to effects of resource shortages and such certainly did not make things easier for the AI, but it will need to be looked at together with some other new changes in how the AI handles production of divisions.
Why dont you fix shortage calculation itself. If there were no strict priority among queues but were resources distributed evenly - or maybe only a high medium low priority would exist, then the more realistic new calculus would actually make sense and would be easier to handle as well. If there is oil shortage then it is not that it doesnt impact at all tigers but fully halts all pziv production.
 

stjern

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203 Divisions have been allocated to the southern western front, allowing AI Germany to just march on in Northern and Central Russia.

View attachment 245083
On the far west we have 60 divisions in a single province.

If there is no code in the game to stop the AI from doing things like this, then isn't the AI war just a matter of luck in terms of whichever AI does something like this first is likely to lose?

(((((Later post:))))
I've had a sneaking suspicion that loading from a save game causes the AI to do a re-evaluation, or causes it to lose its focus / history on it's current setup, that weakens it. Is this confirmed/known? Or is it something else? Russia seemed to be doing rather well and I did tag over to Germany before tagging back to Soviets to just see what might be going on, something I normally don't do. So is loading from a save game potentially AI breaking? Or how about tag switching with human_ai enabled? Because this is how 1941 ends:

Yes, this is the infamous "front reload bug". This will eventually happen to germany or soviet in most games and whoever it happens to first will be in huge trouble. If you reload the save it could be fixed. I've observed exacly the same pattern in many barbarossas now. Often the german AI gets stuck doing this same thing and leaving the northern part of the front wide open.

And keep in minds this is ai vs ai, a player will be able to exploit this very quickly and just march to Moscow/Berlin where the front is abandoned. It gets even worse untill you reload, in one of my games Germany had 80% of its 250 divisions in just 3 provinces in the caucasus mountains.

According to my observations, mountain or march provices seems to have an increased chance of triggering this bug for germany.


I have tried to improve this aspect of the game in my mod "Total War", the land ai should be slightly improved. If anyones tries it and provides feedback I would be really happy and listen to your input.
 

Gwydion5

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Yes, this is the infamous "front reload bug".

In the post you are quoting, there was no reload. It was a straight playthrough from 1936 to 1942 using human_ai for Russia. In the second post where AI Russia invades most of Max Boosted AI Germany, I reloaded from the 1941 save. Just to be clear on the differences in the two posts. :)

I have tried to improve this aspect of the game in my mod "Total War", the land ai should be slightly improved. If anyones tries it and provides feedback I would be really happy and listen to your input.

I will have to check it out.
 

stjern

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In the post you are quoting, there was no reload. It was a straight playthrough from 1936 to 1942 using human_ai for Russia. In the second post where AI Russia invades most of Max Boosted AI Germany, I reloaded from the 1941 save. Just to be clear on the differences in the two posts. :)

I just called it that because it can be fixed by a reload. :) In theory there are probably ways to fix this in defines.lua file. Some weights make the ai stick to a plan it has set in motion, probably a faulty modifier somewhere in the base code that gives that plan increasing "score" the more units are massed there. When the AI is realoaded it recalculates its scores without the weight biases to current plan (since it reloaded it has none) and it suddenly tries to fill the front again.
 

SteelVolt

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Why dont you fix shortage calculation itself. If there were no strict priority among queues but were resources distributed evenly - or maybe only a high medium low priority would exist, then the more realistic new calculus would actually make sense and would be easier to handle as well. If there is oil shortage then it is not that it doesnt impact at all tigers but fully halts all pziv production.

This was a design decision I was not involved in.
 

mathers

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This was a design decision I was not involved in.
When I was a Test Engineer at MS then we were able to force to build in testability features.
A complex system cannot be optimised part by part. If certain modules like AI built as an afterthought then overall cost/value will be hurt.
Current implementation hurts playability of mods as well. Concept makes sense, how lack of resource impacts a specific queue as well, that partial resource allocation is not allowed hurts greatly.
Then at least add split/merge queue without resetting efficiency
 

Dalwin

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When I was a Test Engineer at MS then we were able to force to build in testability features.
A complex system cannot be optimised part by part. If certain modules like AI built as an afterthought then overall cost/value will be hurt.
Current implementation hurts playability of mods as well. Concept makes sense, how lack of resource impacts a specific queue as well, that partial resource allocation is not allowed hurts greatly.
Then at least add split/merge queue without resetting efficiency
It is not only shortages that should be spread more evenly across the queues, but the effects of bombing/sabotage as well. This would be more realistic from an historical standpoint, as well as less of a hassle for the player. I presume it would also punish the AI less severely for its decisions than does the current system.

Having entire product lines shut down compltely from damage while others are unscathed is bad enough. The fact that with a few mouse clicks this can be reversed so that the first item is untouched and the other is completely shut down, still supposedly due to bombing damage, seems very hard to rationalize let alone justify.
 

Gort11

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I think both players and AI would have a much better time with production if:

1. You could set up your production proportionally - "I want half my factories on infantry equipment, and half on artillery". New factories would automatically balance according to the proportions, and lost factories would come out of production lines evenly.

2. You could buy single units of resources. It feels stupid to need 9 units of a resource but you can only buy either 8 or 16 units of it.

3. You could automatically trade to cover your missing resources.