1.3.3 (2dd2) Is AI Germany competitive in your games?

[Gwydion5]

Game Version : v1.3.3 (2dd2) - New Game (as in not loading from a saved game) - Regular difficulty - Historical Focus
DLC : Together for Victory
Mods : NONE (I have never used mods ever in HOI4, nor edited any files)

I've played a few games, and I've observed a few games and it seems like AI Germany is incapable of success in 1941. Russia is just far too strong, the best game I've seen AI Germany do is a slow creep into soviet lands, but AI Germany is running huge deficits on equipment and the construction queue is filled with repairs. The worst I've seen is Russia basically rolling into Berlin 3 months into the war in 1941.

Also I've noticed AI Germany going right through the Maginot Line well before Netherlands or Belgium fall. I'm not sure if it's because AI France goes all gung ho with Britain on naval invasions on AI Germany or just poor army/division alignments.

Anyone else want to share their experiences / opinion on 1.3.3 (2dd2)?

 

[The_Human_Oddity]

Really? I've had the opposite, Germany tends to crush the Soviets.

 

[Gwydion5]

Really? I've had the opposite, Germany tends to crush the Soviets.

Are you using mods? Are you starting in 1936? Are you using historical focus? Is this specific to 1.3.3. (2dd2)? I just want to make sure because based on my observations I can't see how it would be different in this context and various other issues that influence this outcome as being a constant.

 

[Xia]

I can't comment on Axis vs Comintern potential as my only game so far has been as Finland, and I'd taken Moscow before the Germans entered the war. Against the Allies I saw the same incompetent face planting that has always devastated the AI Reich (~800k casualties vs 150k casualties for the allies, aka war already lost).

AI Germany has always been able to seize Maginot from the French though - it's not (or rather, is rarely) the source for the AI German casualties - the French expect minimal divisions to hold, and they lose half of the Maginot's defensive bonus on that tip province due to multi-directional assault, at which point the French run from the Maginot because of risk of encirclement.

My defeat of the Soviets tells of how the Germans fail though - I exploited every weak spot on the Soviet lines, whilst their hardest points expended hundreds of thousands of manpower against extremely defensible positions. Germany always does the same - they face plant horrible terrain with as many of their troops as possible, attrition wiping out their top of the line hardware before battle casualties kill everything else off.

 

[Gwydion5]

Against the Allies I saw the same incompetent face planting that has always devastated the AI Reich (~800k casualties vs 150k casualties for the allies, aka war already lost).

Seen this in one game where I was observing AI Germany.


The other was less than that, but still the casualty ratio seemed a bit high compared to 1.3.2. In the screenshot I posted, I can't even think how it lost so many other than troop transports and being encircled. That's what I get for observing the game at max speed I suppose.

AI Germany has always been able to seize Maginot from the French though

Yeah I get that. But normally AI Germany defeats Netherlands and Belgium and is well in to Northern France before I saw breaches in the Maginot Line. But now it's consistently doing it well before Netherlands and Belgium fall for me. So I am curious if anyone else is noticing the same.

 

[The_Human_Oddity]

Are you using mods? Are you starting in 1936? Are you using historical focus? Is this specific to 1.3.3. (2dd2)? I just want to make sure because based on my observations I can't see how it would be different in this context and various other issues that influence this outcome as being a constant.

Yeah, it's the vanilla game.

 

[Shock360]

Does observing still break the AI?

 

[Gwydion5]

Yeah, it's the vanilla game.

Well I just observed another vanilla game of AI Germany, It's late May 1941 and Russia is like 3 provinces from Berlin. So out of 3 AI Germany games, 2 were crushing defeats, with one being essentially a stalemate in terms of territory / push, but a loss simply because AI Germany had huge deficits and nearly 1-1 casualty ratio with Russia. So either I have bad luck or you have great luck.

 

[Gwydion5]

Does observing still break the AI?

Why would observing break the AI? Is there a post documenting this? Did Paradox confirm it? That would make me all kinds of furious considering how much time I spend observing the AI!

 

[dmdelor]

Yes, Paradox has said so in several posts. It started back in like 1.1 or 1.2; if you look at the threads for those release announcements, you should be able to find them saying that.

You can observe by using -human_ai and -fov. Typically I do that, and then also go for some minor nation like Cuba just in case my presence still breaks the nation I'm in, and just -tag over while the game is paused to check out the state of the majors when I need to dig deeper.

As for power levels, I've been seeing the AI Germany plow through the Maginot line pretty regularly since at least as far back as 1.2, maybe sooner. Russia has usually been a coin flip for me- it can go either way- although I've only observed one 1.3.3 game so I don't know if that's still the case.

 

[Enigma1]

It has been posted several times over the past few months by the devs for one reason or another, that observer mode can cause the AI to behave differently.

 

[Bambilambi]

hands off games on latest beta patch (playing as USA) then SOV wins every time for me. However when playing with expert ai mod the Germany wins. So it seems to be, in part, a production related loss.

 

[Xia]

My second game since 1.3.3 has kinda suggested that the issue might not be Germany being worse, but rather the Soviets being better (hence when I curbstomped the Soviets as Finland the Germans behaved pretty much the same as ever). Soviets took Berlin basically upon entry (mid 1942 - surprisingly late I should add), despite me not bothering to enter the war until 1943 as US and basically not helping anyone (other than Finland, for reasons).

EDIT: come to think of it, the AI not fortifying neutral borders WOULD drastically improve soviet performance, whereas... Germans don't really do neutral borders lol.

 

[Gwydion5]

Alright I found this post:

The functionality that prevents the observer from interfering with a country also blocked the AI from performing certain actions. Unfortunately there is no quick fix at the moment.

Ugh... So basically hours of testing and documenting to try and give Paradox helpful information could have been contaminated by observer mode bugs. Great. I think there should be a sticky and/or updated posts in the bug forum and maybe the general forum so those that try to troubleshoot don't waste time thinking Observer mode is ideal for testing. I think we also need to know exactly what aspects of this functionality are being prohibited in the AI. Because it may not be relevant to many issues reported on. But kind of hard to say when we don't know what actions specifically aren't being allowed because of observer mode.

 

[Gwydion5]

You can observe by using -human_ai and -fov. Typically I do that, and then also go for some minor nation like Cuba just in case my presence still breaks the nation I'm in, and just -tag over while the game is paused to check out the state of the majors when I need to dig deeper.

I might have to play around with the HUMAN_AI command. But the FOW command according to Havebeard may affect the AI due to intel. In any case it's a real downer to not know what bugs might be real, and what ones might be affected by some session or setup that you are using trying to observe and document the bug. Very frustrating conditions to try and gather good data and draw conclusions from them.

It has been posted several times over the past few months by the devs for one reason or another, that observer mode can cause the AI to behave differently.

Sorry I don't keep track of the devs and forum posts. But I don't feel this is something that is common knowledge or something that I should have known about given that it was first observed on June 30th 2016.

/end replies.

Alright with that out of the way, I do appreciate people informing me about the potential issues with observe mode. I did start a new 1936 game playing as Guatemala, regular difficulty, historical focus. I went all the to July 1st of 1941 without using any commands, or loading from a save game or anything, and a lot of the issues I've been seeing still seem present regardless of observe mode.

I've been playing HOI4 for a while, 436 hours according to Steam, 99% of that is Single Player with my main countries being Germany, France, Italy, UK and USSR. What I've seen in 4 games now is AI Russia stomping AI Germany in 1941. I do not think this is a fluke, I think that with the changes of 1.3.3, that AI Germany has no chance against Russia for a variety of reasons, and thus is no longer competitive. This observation tends to speak to a deeper issue of game balance in my humble opinion.

January 10th 1941 : Soviet Union declares war on Finland, and Finland joins the Axis pulling Germany in to the war. Here are some screenshots showing how that battle goes from January 41 to July 41.



Only 1 out of 4 games have I observed something different than that demonstrated in the screenshots above. In that one game AI Germany was having huge equipment deficits and barely pushing past the Eastern Polish lands. I could see the red tide turn against germany in the second half of 41 or early quarter of 42 and probably reach the same conclusion.

So after the July 1st 1941 save, I then go in to observe mode and look at Germany to get an Idea of what is going on.


I just don't see how AI Germany can effectively fight like this. I suppose you could use the difficulty sliders or mods to make it more challenging, but from the baseline rules and balance of the game, this just seems like it needs some refinement. I was hoping others would simply confirm my assertions so I wouldn't have to test this over and over again. But on the bright side I now am aware of the observe mode issues which will help me avoid potential problems in the future.

Anyway that's all I got. I guess I might try a game with the difficulty sliders for Germany moved all the way up and see if Russia continues to curb stomp them in 41.

 

[browd]

You don't need to use observe mode, ever. Let the game run, periodically save. After saving, switch tags to whatever countries you want to spy on, and when finished checking out those countries, reload the save and let the game play on again.

 

[bitmode]

You don't need to use observe mode, ever. Let the game run, periodically save. After saving, switch tags to whatever countries you want to spy on, and when finished checking out those countries, reload the save and let the game play on again.

It works, but this slows the test feedback loop considerably which usually leads to less thorough testing (both by users and devs).

@Gwydion5 Generally: I find your bug reports spot on and they really leave me wondering what more could be done to warrant a reaction by the devs.
About this bug: I'm trying the Crusader Kings 2 achievement for a while which for me hinges on Germany doing somewhat well and I definitely see consistent regressions since 1.3.3 as well. In addition to more effective infantry division templates on the Allies side since 1.3.0 causing more casualties in France, the neutral borders and naval changes play a big part in this:

• Russia has moderately more divisions on the western front
• after defeating France, Germany uses fewer division for guarding borders and sends more to help Italy in Africa (via dangerous routes)
• the Allies use their fleets a bit more competently to take these convoys down

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

While playing Soviets, I saw Germans and Italians pack divisions into Manchuria, losing many of them to my subs (presumably Allies as well). Ironically axis Japan has stayed out of war so they can't actually attack into my territory from there.

 

[Napoleonetniet]

btw you can also do a handsoff with a ton of autosaves,

just have to adjust
debug_saves=
in
...\Documents\Paradox Interactive\Hearts of Iron IV\settings.txt

go watch a movie or whatever, and check the saves lateron , if i want f.i. trade and supply to run and update at midnight (or need to watch something) i always use human_ai aswell

it would be nice indeed if observer was working though

 

[Dalwin]

Only played one so far as Japan. Germany was dead and gone by late '42. Peace conference for European war was in 12/42. Fortunately I was in my own faction instead of joining Axis.