1.27 Lithuanian province names

[Patriotas1251]

When I glanced at yesterday's dev diary, I was very excited to see that my country got new provinces, but what bothered me was the fact that most of the new provinces were a mish-mash of Ruthenian and Polish names instead of proper Lithuanian ones. So I decided to make a thread devoted to 'clean up' the names. So, here we go:

Upita > Upytė
Wilkimierz > Vilkmergė
Bransau > Breslauja
Lida > Lyda
Nowogrodek > Naugardukas
Sluck > Sluckas
Kremenets > Kremenecas
Owrucz > Ovručas
Bobrujsk > Babruiskas
Mogilev > Mogiliavas
Mstislav > Mstislavlis
Toropets > Toropecas
Vyazma > Viazma
Trubchevsk > Trubčevskas
Rylsk > Rylskas
Lubinie > Lubnai
Winnica > Vinica

Also, Lithuania should have access to the Baltic sea (pic related), so hopefully devs will fix the Teutonic-Lithuanian border.

 

[Patriotas1251]

Map for reference:

 

[Mingmung]

They haven't given Lithuania acces to the Baltic Sea because of balance, if I'm not mistaken.

It's not plain ignorance or something.

Otherwise, I do agree with your suggestion.

 

[Patriotas1251]

They haven't given Lithuania acces to the Baltic Sea because of balance, if I'm not mistaken.

It's not plain ignorance or something.

Otherwise, I do agree with your suggestion.

Yeah, I get it. But the seaports of Šventoji and Palanga were very important to Lithuania during this game's timeframe.

Spoiler: History of Šventoji

'In the year of 1520 The Holy Evangelic Lutheran Church was built. The locals were mostly Curonian fishermen. Šventoji was first marked in 1542 by H. Celius on map. During the XIV-XVII c. Šventoji is mentioned in the Hanseatic merchants' shops' trade routes of Königsberg-Riga. Šventoji port was marked on maps, competed with Klaipėda, there was a shipyard, a shopping center, a fortress, a park. During the XVI-XVIII centuries Šventoji was visited by English, Dutch, and Swedish ships, which bought crops, fur, honey, but brought iron, manufactory, salt, wine, herring, weapons. English merchants have been given the privilege of installing a port to which large commercial ships could enter.

In the year of 1589, by the decision of the Seimas of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth the port of Šventoji was expanded. Šventoji was especially visited by foreign ships during the rule of Vladislav Vasa (1632-1648) and John II Casimir (1648-1668) during the period when the port of Šventoji was occupied in 1655, when Charles X Gustav occupied not only the Lithuanian seaside, but also the whole of Western Lithuania. At that time, the port of Šventoji became a major competitor to the ports of Klaipėda and Königsberg.

In 1639 On 16 February, Wladyslaw Vaza, convinced by the merchants of Klaipėda, through the Brandenburg marker, George Wilhelm issued a decree directed against those who send goods from Lithuania via Šventoji instead of Klaipėda, thus terminating the revenues of the royal treasury (the king received 2%) and the city of Klaipėda, which was very impoverished due to the Deluge, and drew the attention of the Samogitian elders to the fact that intensive trade is taking place through Šventoji. In 1639 Samogitians burned an English trading office in the port of Šventoji, as well as ships, coaches and workshops.

In 1679 John Sobieski gave the English merchants the privilege to install a big port for large ships, and in 1685, granted Šventoji Magdeburg rights. In 1685 Šventoji was allowed to independently trade and develop a maritime business, where the English merchant Horst re-established his own trading firm. After that, the harbor of Šventoji recovered again and due to competition of Klaipėda's merchants' with Šventoji merchants' they complained in 1687 and 1690.

Due to competition, the Riga merchants hired the Swedes to close the port with stones in 1701. During the Northern War, the harbor of Šventoji was destroyed. During the XVIII century, the Lithuanian-Polish spokesman, Bukota, promised to rebuild the port of Šventoji in exchange with England, but after the partition of the state (1772-1795), these plans collapsed. During the period of the Russian Empire (1795-1915), the port of Šventoji had drowned.'

 

[Mingmung]

Yeah, I get it. But the seaports of Šventoji and Palanga were very important to Lithuania during this game's timeframe.

Spoiler: History of Šventoji

'In the year of 1520 The Holy Evangelic Lutheran Church was built. The locals were mostly Curonian fishermen. Šventoji was first marked in 1542 by H. Celius on map. During the XIV-XVII c. Šventoji is mentioned in the Hanseatic merchants' shops' trade routes of Königsberg-Riga. Šventoji port was marked on maps, competed with Klaipėda, there was a shipyard, a shopping center, a fortress, a park. During the XVI-XVIII centuries Šventoji was visited by English, Dutch, and Swedish ships, which bought crops, fur, honey, but brought iron, manufactory, salt, wine, herring, weapons. English merchants have been given the privilege of installing a port to which large commercial ships could enter.

In the year of 1589, by the decision of the Seimas of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth the port of Šventoji was expanded. Šventoji was especially visited by foreign ships during the rule of Vladislav Vasa (1632-1648) and John II Casimir (1648-1668) during the period when the port of Šventoji was occupied in 1655, when Charles X Gustav occupied not only the Lithuanian seaside, but also the whole of Western Lithuania. At that time, the port of Šventoji became a major competitor to the ports of Klaipėda and Königsberg.

In 1639 On 16 February, Wladyslaw Vaza, convinced by the merchants of Klaipėda, through the Brandenburg marker, George Wilhelm issued a decree directed against those who send goods from Lithuania via Šventoji instead of Klaipėda, thus terminating the revenues of the royal treasury (the king received 2%) and the city of Klaipėda, which was very impoverished due to the Deluge, and drew the attention of the Samogitian elders to the fact that intensive trade is taking place through Šventoji. In 1639 Samogitians burned an English trading office in the port of Šventoji, as well as ships, coaches and workshops.

In 1679 John Sobieski gave the English merchants the privilege to install a big port for large ships, and in 1685, granted Šventoji Magdeburg rights. In 1685 Šventoji was allowed to independently trade and develop a maritime business, where the English merchant Horst re-established his own trading firm. After that, the harbor of Šventoji recovered again and due to competition of Klaipėda's merchants' with Šventoji merchants' they complained in 1687 and 1690.

Due to competition, the Riga merchants hired the Swedes to close the port with stones in 1701. During the Northern War, the harbor of Šventoji was destroyed. During the XVIII century, the Lithuanian-Polish spokesman, Bukota, promised to rebuild the port of Šventoji in exchange with England, but after the partition of the state (1772-1795), these plans collapsed. During the period of the Russian Empire (1795-1915), the port of Šventoji had drowned.'

But both of them were still small villages in 1444.

 

[Matihood1]

Also, Lithuania should have access to the Baltic sea (pic related), so hopefully devs will fix the Teutonic-Lithuanian border.

The devs know about it and apparently they have a reason to keep it that way. I hope we'll find out out what that reason is one day.

As to the rest of your suggestion, I suggest checking which special characters can be used in the game and which can't (I know for certain that "č" can't be used) because, knowing the devs, they'll just remove all special characters if they find out your suggested names don't show up properly in the game.

 

[Patriotas1251]

But both of them were still small villages in 1444.

Yes. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't get a port. Kholmogory (a Novgorodian province in the Arctic sea) for example is a village in 1444, why did that province get a port?

 

[Mingmung]

Yes. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't get a port. Kholmogory (a Novgorodian province in the Arctic sea) for example is a village in 1444, why did that province get a port?

Because Novgorod was in dire need of more provinces and there were no other suitable options in that region, maybe?

 

[Patriotas1251]

The devs know about it and apparently they have a reason to keep it that way. I hope we'll find out out what that reason is one day.

As to the rest of your suggestion, I suggest checking which special characters can be used in the game and which can't (I know for certain that "č" can't be used) because, knowing the devs, they'll just remove all special characters if they find out your suggested names don't show up properly in the game.

Well, if devs can't give us a Baltic sea port, then they could atleast redraw the Zemaitija province and make it have a coastline with no ports to access.

Eh, I'd rather have those provinces renamed to Lithuanian without special letters instead of a weird mish-mash of Polish and Russian province names.

Because Novgorod was in dire need of more provinces and there were no other suitable options in that region, maybe?

What about Lithuanian provinces like 'Edisanas, Ingilas, Zaporoze'? These places didn't have a seaport, atleast during the rule of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Why do those places get a port?

 

[Matihood1]

Eh, I'd rather have those provinces renamed to Lithuanian without special letters instead of a weird mish-mash of Polish and Russian province names.

I'm with you on sorting out the names of Lithuanian provinces but giving up diacritics just isn't a right thing to do. Just make a small mod and use your suggested names in game and see which letters show up correctly and which don't. Those that don't you can just remove.

Alternatively, you can use this list: https://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm
It contains all special characters supported by the ASCII system and therefore by EUIV.

 

[Patriotas1251]

I'm with you on sorting out the names of Lithuanian provinces but giving up diacritics just isn't a right thing to do. Just make a small mod and use your suggested names in game and see which letters show up correctly and which don't. Those that don't you can just remove.

Alternatively, you can use this list: https://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm
It contains all special characters supported by the ASCII system and therefore by EUIV.

The only 'special' Lithuanian letter the game can support is 'š', which none of the province names' require. Anyways, thanks for telling me about this. I will keep this in mind.

 

[Patriotas1251]

@neondt
@DDRJake
@Trin Tragula

 

[neondt]

When I glanced at yesterday's dev diary, I was very excited to see that my country got new provinces, but what bothered me was the fact that most of the new provinces were a mish-mash of Ruthenian and Polish names instead of proper Lithuanian ones. So I decided to make a thread devoted to 'clean up' the names. So, here we go:

Upita > Upytė
Wilkimierz > Vilkmergė
Bransau > Breslauja
Lida > Lyda
Nowogrodek > Naugardukas
Sluck > Sluckas
Kremenets > Kremenecas
Owrucz > Ovručas
Bobrujsk > Babruiskas
Mogilev > Mogiliavas
Mstislav > Mstislavlis
Toropets > Toropecas
Vyazma > Viazma
Trubchevsk > Trubčevskas
Rylsk > Rylskas
Lubinie > Lubnai
Winnica > Vinica

Looks good. Will implement.

Also, Lithuania should have access to the Baltic sea (pic related), so hopefully devs will fix the Teutonic-Lithuanian border.

No

 

[Patriotas1251]

Looks good. Will implement.

Alright, thanks.

 

[famikon]

Looks good. Will implement.



No

Those names are not historical. Not to mention, that Lithuanians were minority in Grand Duchy of Lithuania (notice how nobody call them Lietuva, even now), it was mostly Ruthenian country – Ruthenian was official language, for example:

So, Minskas, Babruiskas, etc - doesn't make any sense. So, can you keep historical names at least for Ruthenians cities?
Or, as variant, give us option to choose.

 

[famikon]

And, Kijevas, really? The oldest city in those lands you called Kijevas?
What's next – Kijevas Rus'?

And this too:

It should be Simanovich or Simonovich, it's Belarusian patronym.

 

[Matihood1]

Those names are not historical. Not to mention, that Lithuanians were minority in Grand Duchy of Lithuania (notice how nobody call them Lietuva, even now), it was mostly Ruthenian country – Ruthenian was official language

I agree, all those Lithuanian names in a country that used Ruthenian as a state language are pretty out of place. But they're tied to Lithuanian culture (at least province names, not sure about advisor and ruler names) and Lithuania is the primary tag for that culture. IMHO there should be an event at the beginning of the game for Lithuania that would give you an option to change the primary culture to Belarusian to represent the ruthenization of Lithuania that happened in history.

What's also worth mentioning is the mess that are the default names of Lithuanian provinces. Most of them are in Russian, some of them are in Polish (some misspelled, like Rowne - should be "Równe"), some of them are in English (Vilna) and I believe only one is in Lithuanian - Trakai (Polish and historically Russian - Troki). I think those should be dealt with as well.

 

[famikon]

In addition, found some old maps from XVI-XVII centuries:

http://digitool.is.cuni.cz:1801/vie.../action/nmets.do?&DELIVERY_RULE_ID=3&divType=

http://biblio.unibe.ch/web-apps/maps/zoomify.php?pic=Ryh_5910_11.jpg&col=ryh

--
as bonus, this map is pretty fun → https://www.e-rara.ch/bes_1/content/pageview/10499086 (was published in 1561 in Venice)

 

[Matihood1]

In addition, found some old maps from XVI-XVII centuries

I think those are Polish maps since only Poles use "w" as "v" as well as the digraph "cz"

 

[famikon]

Also, I want to post this quote from other old thread. and I think it explains this issue much better:

... modern Lithuanian language was not officially used during that time that can be proved by Lithuanian Statues which were written in old Belarusian language and in fact were main codes of law in Grand Duchy of Lithuania. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Lithuania# (though the article says the statutes were written in Ruthenian, we call it old Belarusian in order to distinguish it from old Ukrainian which was quite different)
As for culture you can check the original materials of Russian Empire Census of 1897 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire_Census) where you can see that earlier the majority of people living in rural areas around Vilna (Wilno, Vilniaus) used Belarusian as their mother tongue (though in the city itself Russian and Polish were dominant). We can also see that name 'Vilna' was commonly used on original maps of that period (you can see it for example on maps by German cartographer Sebastian Münster, I'll attach one of 1588).
Finally I'd like to say that there's no need to make conflict, although I would be grateful if the names of Belarusian cities were changed.
P.S. Long ago I was studying in Lithuania and my history teacher there was always mentioning that both Lithuanians and Belarusians played equal roles in the history of Lithuanian duchy, so let's not argue here about our common past.

The other thing about names is the specific Lithuanian grammar because some names have endings -as, -us etc. due to grammatical gender. Let's take Vilnius as an example. In Belarusian it's written and pronounced as Вiльня (Vilnia). In Lithuanian it's written like Vilniaus, so you can see that the only difference is the ending. However in Lithuanian this ending changes when we change the word form. For example when you ask where? in Lithuanian they say Vilniuje that means 'in Vilnius' (if I remember it correctly).
There's a funny thing I noticed in Lithuania while being there in 2009. That year Vilnius was the cultural capital of Europe and there used to be portraits of great European people on public transport. I remember that some names like Bach and Beethoven were spelled like Bachas and Bethovenas using Lithuanian endings. I mean that nobody would spell Bethovenas when translating back into English but when using Lithuanian sources to read about history, Europeans often adopt these endings into their languages, that isn't imho totally correct.